October 16, 1975 — morning walk

 

 

HIGHLIGHTS: Work God’s land, pay taxes to his saintly king…all social orders need training…education: Vedic versus modern…good and bad work…paper money, gold, and real goods… Krsna consciousness: the peaceful revolution

 

Prabhupäda: Now, suppose that here is open field. There is… We are walking very nicely. And the downtown, congested city, that is not very nice. So at least, if I don’t spoil my energy to make the place uncomfort able, if I save my energy and chant Hare Kåñëa in this open field, that is intelligence or that is intelligent? Which is intelligent? We are also going to die. That’s all right. But we are going to die like intelligent person, not like cats and dogs. That is the difference.

 

 

Puñöa Kåñëa: The argument is, though, that everyone has to work because they have to feed themselves and they have to…

Prabhupäda: Yes. We are working. We are not sitting idle. Now, for our food, if we just get some food by plowing some land for the animal, cows, and for me, and the cow is giving me milk, the tree are giving me fruit, why shall I work so hard? The business of dogs and hogs, whole day and night simply working for getting food and sense gratification? That is not civilization. Live peacefully, get your nice food, and save time to advance in spiritual life. This is civilization. And simply for little comfort for a few years I have wasted my time in so many humbug comforts. Actually that is… What is this comfort of the skyscraper building? I think it is a mechanical prison.

Puñöa Kåñëa: Matchbox also.

Prabhupäda: Matchbox.

 

Puñöa Kåñëa: You said last night that without electricity it would be hell.

Prabhupäda: It is hell. And we are creating this hell.

Harikeça: I don’t know. I’m enjoying.

Prabhupäda: You are a rascal. That is the proof you are a rascal. (laughter)…

Puñöa Kåñëa: If nothing is our property—in fact, everything is Kåñëa’s property—why is there this desire to possess so many things?

Prabhupäda: Possess, you can possess. Tena tyaktena bhuïjithä. [Çré Éçopaniñad 1: “…One should…accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.”] The real proposal is that everything belongs to God. Then God’s representative, king, he gives you land. But you require for ten men’s foodstuff. You calculate the ten men’s foodstuff, for producing, you require so much land, so the king gives you land. You work and grow your food. And because it is God’s property, you give some tax. Whatever you produce, twenty-five percent give to God or king, and balance, you enjoy. If there is no production—no tax. This is peaceful life. You work. You take land, God’s land. You cannot… Why you have occupied so much land? Others, they are not allowed to enter; where there is overpopulation? How you can expect peace? Just like in China and India and other places they’re overpopulation. Why don’t you allow them, that “In Africa there is no sufficient population. Please come and toil and grow your food and live peacefully”? Where is that formula? Rascals, they are wanting peace. All rascal, rogues. And why they have become rascal, rogues? For want of God consciousness. They do not know that it is God’s property, falsely thinking, “My property.” And today I am thinking, “My property,” and next day I become a dog on the same property. Hm? This dog loitering, who can say he was not formerly a Mr. Smuts? Who can say? Maybe he was Smuts; now he is dog. How can you take him? This is nature’s process. Tathä dehäntara-präptiù. After death you’ll have to accept another body. Now who can guarantee that General Smuts did not accept a dog’s body? Who can guarantee? Where is the science? You think that he is dead and gone, but Kåñëa does not say like that. Tathä dehän tara- präptiù. Now what kind of body he has got? Where is the scientist to ascertain that “Mr., General Smuts has got now this body. He is living here”? Where is the science? You simply see like a fool and rascal, “My father is gone.” Where your father gone? Where did he live so long? Why did you not see him? Where is the science? He is simply crying like a child, “My father is gone.” Where he has gone? Find him out. And what he was? Why did you not see so long? This is their knowledge.

 

Harikeça: It seems unless there is some monarch who is ruling over the whole world, one personality…

Prabhupäda: No, not… Yes, whole world. He must be räjarñi, just like Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira, representative of Kåñëa. He can divide to small kings, “Now you look after such tract of land,” and he divides. In this way there will be peace. No tax. If you are unable to produce anything, then no tax. Why should you levy tax from the poor man?

 

 

Harikeça: What about those people who don’t want to work? They are lazy.

Prabhupäda: Hm?

Harikeça: What about lazy people?

Prabhupäda: Let them become çüdra. Let them become servant. After all, unless he works, he cannot get his food. So let him become servant. He has to work to get food. No property. He should not be given any property. If you work, you can get food. Just like animal.

Harikeça: How in the beginning is it decided that somebody is working and he should be given or not given?

Prabhupäda: Hm?

Harikeça: How in the beginning… Let’s say you have a king…

Prabhupäda: Beginning Kåñëa.

Harikeça: No, no. Let’s say you have a king, and he is deciding this person is worthy of…

Prabhupäda: No, no, beginning, Kåñëa. Why don’t you read Bhagavad-gétä? You do not know?

Harikeça: No, no. Yes.

Prabhupäda: What is the social arrangement? What is that?

Harikeça: That Kåñëa created the four orders.

 

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. So you make that four orders, and then society will be in order. But you are not taking Kåñëa’s advice. You are manufacturing your hellish ideas.

Harikeça: No, I was just wondering how one would be able to see who was acting in a certain way unless they were first engaged in something. They have to be doing some activity…

Prabhupäda: No, no.

Harikeça: …so you can see what kind of quality they have.

Prabhupäda: No, no. Take “everyone is rascal,” then train them. That is wanted. Take everyone as rascal. There is no question that “Here is intelligent man, here is rascal, here is the…” No. First of all take them all rascals, and then train them. That is wanted. That is wanted now. At the present moment the whole world is full of rascals. Now, if they take to Kåñëa consciousness, select amongst them. Just like I am training. You are brähmaëa by training. So one who is prepared to be trained as brähmaëa, classify him in the brähmaëa. One is trained up as kñatriya, classify him. In this way, cätur-varëyaà mäyä såñ…

 

Harikeça: And that kñatriya would engage everyone basically as çüdra and then pick from them.

Prabhupäda: Hm?

Harikeça: He would initially pick…

Prabhupäda: No, no, no. You pick up… You take the whole mass of people as çüdra. Then…

Harikeça: Pick out.

Prabhupäda: Pick out. And rest, who is neither brähmaëa nor kñatriya nor vaiçya, then he is çüdra. That’s all, very easy thing. If he cannot be trained up as engineer, then he remains as a common man. There is no force. This is the way of organizing society. There is no force. Çüdra is also required.

Puñöa Kåñëa: Now the incentive in modern society to become educated or to become engineer is money. What is the incentive in Vedic culture?

 

Prabhupäda: There is no need of money. The brähmaëa teaches everything free of charge. There is no question of money. Anyone can take education as a brähmaëa or a kñatriya, as a vaiçya. There is no… Vaiçya doesn’t require any education. Kñatriyas require little. Brähmaëa require. But that is free. Just find out a brähmaëa guru and he will give you free education. That’s all. This is society. Now, as soon as… At the present moment, as soon as one wants to be educated, he requires money. But in the Vedic society there is no question of money. Education free.

Harikeça: So the incentive is the happiness in society?

Prabhupäda: Yes, that is… Everyone is hankering after: “Where is happiness?” This will be the happiness. When people will be peaceful, happy in their living condition, that will bring happiness, not by imagining that “If I have got a skyscraper building, I will be happy,” and then jump over and commit suicide. That is going on. He is thinking that “If I have a skyscraper building, I will be happy,” and when he is frustrated, he jumps down. That is going on. This is happiness. That means all rascals. They do not know what is happiness. Therefore everyone requires guidance from Kåñëa. That is Kåñëa consciousness. Now you were saying that there is high rate of suicide here?

 

Puñöa Kåñëa: Yes.

Prabhupäda: Why? This is the country possessing gold mine, and why they are…? And you said that it is difficult to become poor here.

 

Puñöa Kåñëa: Yes. You have to try hard to become poor man here.

Prabhupäda: Yes. And still there is suicide. Why? Every man is rich man, and why he is committing suicide? Hm? Can you reply?

 

Devotee: They lack central happiness?

Prabhupäda: Yes. There is no happiness. (pause) Nobody can remain lazy, because he will be hungry. So how he will remain lazy? He’ll have to go somewhere, begging food, and he’ll say, “First of all work. Then get your food.” He’ll work. So there is no question of remaining lazy. Just like the hippies. They do not work, but when they do not get food from anywhere, they go and work. Is it not? So he will be obliged to work.

Puñöa Kåñëa: That is the incentive, then.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Devotee: Some of them steal. Instead of working, they steal their food.

Prabhupäda: Yes. Steal… When he is arrested, then he has to work in the prison. That’s all.

 

Harikeça: Chopping rocks.

Prabhupäda: Yes. Otherwise whipping. In Bhagavad-gétä it is recom mended that instead of keeping yourself lazy without working, better to steal. Better to steal.

Puñöa Kåñëa: How is that?

Prabhupäda: Huh? That is there. Stealing is bad work, bad work. It is also working, but bad work. So Kåñëa recommends that instead of keeping yourself lazy, better do bad work.\

Harikeça: “Action is better than inaction.”

Prabhupäda: Yes, yes. Yes.

Harikeça: A man cannot even keep his own body in shape.

Prabhupäda: Yes. So stealing is still better than keeping oneself lazy.

Puñöa Kåñëa: “It is better to perform one’s duty, even though it may be imperfect, than to perform another’s duty”?

Prabhupäda: Yes. Yes. (laughter)

Harikeça: I’ve always wondered… The food will be taken care of in a perfect varëäçrama society; government is taken care of…

Prabhupäda: Government means you, like rascal fools like you. So how you will take care?

 

Harikeça: When it is properly set up.

Prabhupäda: First of all you see the government, what is government? Government means a pack of rascals and fools. That’s all. This is modern government. All these thieves and rogues are voted to be government men. So how you expect good government? It is not possible. “People’s government.” All people are rascals. That means government rascal. People’s government.

 

Harikeça: How would the other necessities of life be taken care of, like medical things? If actually they have no knowledge, and they have to require to build these gigantic hospitals…

 

 

Prabhupäda: The brähmaëas, the brähmaëas will give you medical help. Äyur-Veda. They will read Äyur-Veda. They will give help.

Harikeça: So the Äyur-Veda possibly can work nowadays.

Prabhupäda: Why not?

Harikeça: Some people were telling me that the herbs had lost all their effectiveness in the Kali-yuga.

Prabhupäda: Then die. (laughter) Do you mean to say this modern medical treatment is guarantee for your living?

Harikeça: No.

Prabhupäda: Then? That is also not guarantee. If you see the herbs and plants are no more effective, then if there is no guarantee in your modern medical, there is no guarantee. So why should you spend so much money? As soon as I go to a doctor, immediately twenty dollars. As soon as go to purchase some drugs, immediately twenty. If I have no money… And still that is not guarantee, so why shall I spend so much money?

 

Harikeça: So actually this money doesn’t even exist in Vedic society —money.

Prabhupäda: Money is not required. You require things. Just like instead of money, you are getting papers. Money means gold. Where is gold? You are cheated. Money means gold. So instead of possessing gold, you are possessing some paper, written there, “hundred dollars.” And you are such a fool, you are satisfied. You are being cheated. Bank’s check and currency notes, you keep it in your…, “Oh, here is my money.” Is that money? Just see.

 

Devotee: They only do that to make it easier for them, because they’ve got so much money that they can’t carry it…

Prabhupäda: That’s all right, but actually it is not money. You are befooled. You are such a fool that you accept a piece of paper as money. Therefore I say you are rascal. That is my business. If I say “Government, give me gold,” and government has passed law, “No, you cannot possess gold,” that means cheating. How I shall keep gold, that is my business. First of all you give me gold. It is due to me. But you are giving me paper. That means cheating is begun from you.

 

Harikeça: How will the government decide what my gold is and what his gold is? How does the gold get distributed?

Prabhupäda: Gold coins. Formerly there was gold coins. We have seen in our childhood gold coins, silver coins. There was no paper.

 

Harikeça: But you have to do something to get it.

Prabhupäda: Yes. I will have to do something. That is another thing. But why you are cheating me? Instead of gold, you are giving me paper. Formerly… You have seen in Kåñëa book that one fruit man came, and Kåñëa was taking some grain. It was falling down. So that was the… A fruit man come, and you give him a packet of grain. Then whatever exchange is possible, the fruit man gives you fruit. That’s all.

Puñöa Kåñëa: That is called bartering.

Prabhupäda: Bartering. So there is no need of money. Similarly, you go to another shop. You get. So you produce your food, and in exchange, in barter, you get all things, other things. Somebody is producing something, somebody is producing something. But it can be done. Suppose I am a blacksmith. You want some work from me. So you say that “I’ll make this instrument for me.” So I say, “You give me one kg paddy.” So you give me one kg, I prepare you, so your necessity is fulfilled. Now I have got so much paddy. Now, I may go to purchase something else because I am blacksmith, so grains will be used for my eating, and for, say for ghee, I take the same grain somewhere. So where is the money need of?

 

 

Harikeça: It’s very difficult to cheat in that system. It’s very difficult to cheat.

Prabhupäda: Cheat?

Harikeça: In a system of bartering it’s very hard to cheat.

Prabhupäda: Yes. There is no cheating. Everyone is simply simple, honest. And here the government begins cheating. He is engaging you to hard work day and night and paying you a piece of paper, where it is written “one hundred dollars.” That’s all. This is your society, cheating and cheater. That’s all.

Harikeça: People have a hard time understanding that point, because with a hundred dollar note you can buy things.

Prabhupäda: Therefore I say you are all rascals. You do not know. If I say, the government may arrest me that I am infusing people in a different way. But that is the fact.

Harikeça: So a government’s duty would be to abolish this false standard of money, and then automatically…

Prabhupäda: Yes. Government’s only duty is that government gives me land and I pay tax: “Whatever I produce, take one fourth.” Finish. All taxes. If I don’t produce, there is no tax. That’s all. That is the business between the government and the public. That’s all.

 

 

Harikeça: If the public are giving like one quarter of a perishable item, what does the government do with that? Let’s say they were growing some vegetables, so they give one quarter of that to the government. What would the government do with that? They’ve got so many tons of vegetables.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Harikeça: And everybody is taken care of, because they are growing it.

Prabhupäda: After all, vegetable will be eaten by somebody. So let government distribute there. Vegetable, grains, fruits, milk, ghee, yogurt, natural produce—they will be used by somebody. The government may store and distribute, those who are in need. That’s all.

 

Puñöa Kåñëa: Maybe somebody is only producing gold or gold plates, or somebody is producing something that isn’t food. So he would give that to the government.

Prabhupäda: Well, gold plates, that is not a necessary thing. He can eat on plantain leaf, natural production. That is luxury. So when people live simple life, the luxuries will no more be required.

Puñöa Kåñëa: Let’s say the government is building some wells or some roads. They could feed the people who are doing that, çüdras who are doing that.

Prabhupäda: Yes. Çüdras, that “You dig this well and take your food.” That’s all. Work will go on. At the present moment I require one scissor. I can go to the blacksmith and pay him some grain. He will give me. Now they are producing, Krupp Company in Germany, millions of razor, millions of scissors. Now they will have to find market, where to sell. And as soon as goes to sell in India, the British government—“No, no. You cannot sell.” Then he becomes angry: “Oh, all right.” He declares war.

Puñöa Kåñëa: So complex.

Prabhupäda: Yes. This is going on. “These Britishers do not allow me to go there? All right, kill them.” That was the Hitler policy and Kaiser’s policy, to kill British Empire. They did it. They were successful. But they were also killed. This is going on, unnecessary. Why you produce so much razor and scissor? And then find out market, and when there is competi tion, there is anger, there is enviousness, there is fight, one after another, one after another. Where is peace? Why do you produce so many unnecessarily? Why do you produce so many cars, when there is scarcity of power, and fight with Arabians? Anartha. Therefore it is called anartha, unnecessary. Anarthopasamaà säkñäd bhakti-yogam adhokñaje. As soon as people will be devotee, they will not require unnecessary things. They will be satisfied, simply bare necessities of life. That is peaceful condition. You create unnecessary needs of life, and then there is competition, there is hellish life, the factory, and then the factory man requires wine to forget his hard labor, so on, so on. Then he become thieves. He become rogues. This is your society. How you can expect peace?

 

Puñöa Kåñëa: The only solution is Kåñëa consciousness.

Prabhupäda: That’s it, only solution.

Harikeça: It also seems like the only government that would work would be the Vedic government. Varnäçrama-dharma is the only thing that will work.

Prabhupäda: Yes. Kåñëa conscious government means Vedic government.

Puñöa Kåñëa: We have histories that for millions of years such governments were working successfully. Now, for a few thousand years, they squabble, this type of government, that type of government.

Prabhupäda: Yes. No, first of all, the government is cheating. He is giving me paper in the name of money, and forcing me to accept it.

Harikeça: That seems to be the root cause of…

Prabhupäda: Yes. Government is taking labor from you. You ask, “If you pay me three hundred dollars, then I shall work.” “All right, I shall give you. Work.” Then what is that three hundred? I print and pay you, and you rascal, you accept it, three hundred dollars. What is that three hundred dollars for government? Printing press. And you are so rascal, “Yes, I have got now three hundred dollars.” This is going on. This is artificial inflation. Why there is inflation? Now you have got three hundred dollars without any hard labor. And when you go to purchase—I haven’t got three hundred dollars; you have got—“All right, I shall pay this price.” So price is increased because the seller will see: “Who pays me large price?” So you have got unnecessary money. You offer him large price. So I am poor man; I could not purchase. This is going on.

Harikeça: There was once a few plots exposed, how some governments were ruined because foreign governments were printing up money just like their money, and shipping it in.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Yes. I have seen it. I have seen it during last wartime. One Chinese man was coming to one of my friends, my business friend. So he would give, immediately coming, a bunch of notes, maybe ten thousand.

Puñöa Kåñëa: Indian notes?

Prabhupäda: Yes. And a list of goods. He was his purchasing agent. So that bunch of notes was printed in China. You see? And he brings it and gives to a merchant here, and he gives him real goods, and he takes it out. This is inflation.

Devotee: Could he spend that money?

Prahupada: Yes. I print ten thousand dollars’ worth currency note, and I give you, and I take you, actual goods from you, anywhere.

 

Harikeça: The government is doing that all the time. They take contracts from people.

Prabhupäda: Yes. That is going on. Therefore price is increasing daily. Formerly British government, in the beginning, to prove their honesty, as soon as you go to the currency for changing, they will offer you, “You want coins or paper currency?” So if you think that paper currency will be convenient, you can take. Otherwise, if you want coins, they will pay you.

 

Puñöa Kåñëa: Gold coins.

Prabhupäda: Yes, gold, silver, whatever you want. That was the… Now this is stopped. You can not ask now gold coins and silver coins. Whatever government will give you, you have to accept. Where is honesty?

Devotee: Çréla Prabhupäda, in South Africa they have a coin called the Krugerrand. And one rand is worth one hundred cents, one rand of paper money. But one rand gold is worth about seventy-eight rand.

Prabhupäda: Just see.

 

Devotee: It’s constantly going up and down, the price. Hundred and eight.

Puñöa Kåñëa: Here is the car, Çréla Prabhupäda.

Prabhupäda: Everything mismanaged, cheating.

Harikeça: So until the top man is Kåñëa conscious, this cheating will basically continue.

Prabhupäda: Who is the top man? Everyone is top man. Instead of one king, now you have got one hundred kings. The minister, the secretaries, the under-secretaries, the deputy minister, and so on, so on, so on. So there was only one unfortunate king. Now you have got three dozen kings, and you have to maintain them like kings. This is going on.

Harikeça: They can pay them with their phony money.

 

Prabhupäda: And they are seeking this post because they know that without doing anything, money will come. That’s all. And as soon as you approach some minister, he will ask you, “All right, give me an application.” And after six months’ reminding, he will say, “No, it is not possible.”

Puñöa Kåñëa: Yes. Because so many people have to apply for any one post. That’s a fact. Then he will put his son there.

Prabhupäda: All rogues and thieves.

Harikeça: So actually it is not possible to change the…

Prabhupäda: Change—if they become Kåñëa conscious.

Harikeça: But the system itself is defective. How can…

Prabhupäda: No, the defective will be correct when you become Kåñëa conscious. Just like in your past life you had so many defects. Now it is corrected. That is practical.

Harikeça: Let’s say somebody is a minister…

Prabhupäda: Anybody.

Harikeça: …but his occupation is cheating.

Prabhupäda: That’s all right. Let him become Kåñëa conscious. He will stop this cheating business.

Harikeça: But he has to stop.

Puñöa Kåñëa: Yes. Räjarñi.

Prabhupäda: Yes. He has to stop. It will be stopped as soon as he becomes a devotee.

Harikeça: So then gradually it will become the varëäçrama, with the one central head.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Harikeça: So we don’t try to make a revolutionary system.

Prabhupäda: This is revolution.

Harikeça: We try to just make them Kåñëa conscious, then it’s automatic revolution.

Prabhupäda: Yes. Peaceful revolution. Other revolution will not stand. (break) (in car) …perfect philosophy.

Harikeça: Your method is also the perfect method, the books in the colleges and libraries, educated people and… Wonderful. Actually, you have set everything up to do this.

Prabhupäda: Yes. Everything is spoken by Kåñëa. I am simply putting them for modern man’s understanding. That’s all.

 

 

MAYAPUR, MARCH 1976

DECLARING OUR

DEPENDENCE ON GOD

 

HIGHLIGHTS: How government can help people become happy…how to train leaders…God’s land is for growing food…different classes, common cause…good government under God

 

For many, the American bicentennial was a great occasion for celebration. In March 1976, in Mayapur, India, the editors of Back to Godhead magazine conducted a special interview with Çréla Prabhupäda, who took a hard look at American slogans, such as “All men are created equal,” “In God we trust,” and “One nation under God.”

— Science of Self Realization: Chapter Six:

Finding Spiritual Solutions to Material Problems

 BTG: The founders of America said that another natural right is the right to liberty, or freedom—freedom in the sense that the government doesn’t have the right to tell you what kind of job you have to do.

Çréla Prabhupäda: If the government is not perfect, it should not be allowed to tell people what to do. But if the government is perfect, then it can.

BTG: The third natural right they mentioned was that every human being has the right to pursue happiness.

Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes. But your standard of happiness may be different from my standard. You may like to eat meat; I hate it. How can your standard of happiness be equal to mine?

BTG: So should everyone be free to try to achieve whatever standard of happiness he wants?

Çréla Prabhupäda: No, the standard of happiness should be prescribed according to the qualities of the person. You must divide the whole society into four groups: those with brähmaëa qualities, those with kñatriya qualities, those with vaiçya qualities, and those with çüdra qualities. Everyone should have good facility to work according to his natural qualities.

You cannot engage a bull in the business of a horse, nor can you engage a horse in the business of a bull. Today practically everyone is getting a college education. But what is taught at these colleges? Mostly technical knowledge, which is çüdra education. Real higher education means learning Vedic wisdom. This is meant for the brähmaëas. Alone, çüdra education leads to a chaotic condition.

 Everyone should be tested to find out which education he is suited for. Some çüdras may be given technical education, but most çüdras should work on the farms. Because everyone is coming to the cities to get an education, thinking, “We can get more money,” the agriculture is being neglected. Now there is scarcity because no one is engaged in producing nice foodstuffs. All these anomalies have been caused by bad government. It is the duty of the government to see that everyone is engaged according to his natural qualities. Then people will be happy.

 

 

BTG: So if the government artificially puts all men into one class, then there can’t be happiness.

Çréla Prabhupäda: No, that is unnatural and will cause chaos.

BTG: America’s founding fathers didn’t like classes, because they’d had such bad experience with them. Before the revolution, Americans had been ruled by monarchs, but the monarchs would always become tyrannical and unjust.

 Çréla Prabhupäda: Because they weren’t trained to be saintly monarchs. In Vedic civilization, boys were trained from the very beginning of life as first-class brahmacärés [celibate students]. They went to the gurukula, the school of the spiritual master, and learned self-control, cleanliness, truthfulness, and many other saintly qualities. The best of them were later fit to rule the country. The American Revolution has no special signifi cance. The point is that when people become unhappy, they revolt. That was done in America, that was done in France, and that was done in Russia.

BTG: The American revolutionaries said that if a government fails to rule the people properly, then the people have the right to dissolve that government.

Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes. Just as in Nixon’s case: they pulled him down. But if they replace Nixon with another Nixon, then what is the value? They must know how to replace Nixon with a saintly leader. Because people do not have that training and that culture, they will go on electing one Nixon after another and never become happy.

 

 

People can be happy. The formula for happiness is there in the Bhagavad -gétä. The first thing they must know is that the land belongs to God. Why do Americans claim that the land belongs to them? When the first settlers went to America, they said, “This land belongs to God; therefore we have a right to live here.” So why are they now not allowing others to settle on the land? What is their philosophy? There are so many overpopulated countries. The American government should let those people go to America and should give them facility to cultivate the land and produce grains. Why are they not doing that? They have taken others’ property by force, and by force they are checking others from going there. What is the philosophy behind this?

BTG: There is no philosophy.

Çréla Prabhupäda: Roguism is their philosophy. They take the property by force, and then they make a law that no one can take another’s property by force. So they are thieves. They cannot restrict God’s property from being occupied by God’s sons. America and the other countries in the United Nations should agree that wherever there is enough land, it may be utilized by the human society for producing food. The government can say, “All right, you are overpopulated. Your people can come here. We will give them land, and they can produce food.” We would see a wonderful result. But will they do that? No. Then what is their philosophy? Roguism. “I will take the land by force, and then I won’t allow others to come here.”

BTG: One American motto is “One nation under God.”

Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes, that is Kåñëa consciousness. There should be one nation under God, and one world government under God as well. Everything belongs to God, and we are all His sons. That philosophy is wanted.

 BTG: But in America people are very much afraid of a central government because they think that whenever there’s a strong government there will always be tyranny.

Çréla Prabhupäda: If the leaders are properly trained, there cannot be tyranny.

BTG: But one of the premises of the American system of government is that if a leader has too much power, he will inevitably become corrupt.

Çréla Prabhupäda: You have to train him in such a way that he cannot become corrupt!

BTG: What is that training process?

Çréla Prabhupäda: That training is the varëäçrama-dharma. Divide the society according to quality and train people in the principle that everything belongs to God and should be used in the service of God. Then there really can be “one nation under God.”

BTG: But if society is divided into different groups, won’t there be envy?

Çréla Prabhupäda: No, no. Just as in my body there are different parts that work together, so the society can have different parts working for the same goal. My hand is different from my leg. But when I tell the hand, “Bring a glass of water,” the leg will help. The leg is required, and the hand is required.

BTG: But in the Western world we have a working class and a capitalist class, and there is always warfare going on between the two.

Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes. The capitalist class is required, and the working class is also required.

BTG: But they are fighting.

Çréla Prabhupäda: Because they are not trained up; they have no common cause. The hand and the leg work differently, but the common cause is to maintain the body. So if you find out the common cause for both the capitalists and the workers, then there will be no fighting. But if you do not know the common cause, then there will always be fighting.

BTG: Revolution?

Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes.

BTG: Then the most important thing is to find the common cause that people can unite on?

Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes, just like in our Kåñëa conscious society you come to consult me about every activity, because I can give you the common cause. Otherwise, there will be fighting. The government should be very expert to know the aim of life—the common cause—and they should train the people to work for the common cause. Then they will be happy and peaceful. But if people simply elect rascals like Nixon, they will never find a common cause. Any rascal can secure votes by some arrangement, and then he becomes the head of the government. The candidates are bribing, they are cheating, they are making propaganda to win votes. Somehow or other they get votes and capture the prime post. This system is bad.

BTG: So if we don’t choose our leaders by popular election, how will society be governed?

Çréla Prabhupäda: You require brähmaëas, kñatriyas, vaiçyas, and çüdras. Just as when you want to construct a building, you require engineers. You don’t want sweepers. Isn’t that so? What will the sweeper do? No, there must be engineers. So if you follow the division of varëäçrama, only kñatriyas are allowed to govern. And for the legislative assembly—the senators—only qualified brähmaëas.

Now the butcher is in the legislative assembly. What does he know about making laws? He is a butcher, but by winning votes he becomes a senator. At the present moment, by the principle of vox populi, a butcher goes to the legislature. So everything depends on training. In our Kåñëa conscious society, we’re actually doing that, but in the case of politics, they forget it.

There cannot be just one class. That is foolishness, because we have to engage different classes of men in different activities. If we do not know the art, then we will fail, because unless there is a division of work, there will be havoc. We have discussed all the responsibilities of the king in the Çrémad-Bhägavatam. The different classes in society should cooperate exactly as the different parts of the body do. Although each part is meant for a different purpose, they all work for one cause: to maintain the body properly.

BTG: What is the actual duty of the government?

Çréla Prabhupäda: To understand what God wants and to see that society works toward that aim. Then people will be happy. But if the people work in the wrong direction, how can they be happy? The government’s duty is to see that they are working in the right direction. The right direction is to know God and to act according to His instructions. But if the leaders themselves do not believe in the supremacy of God, and if they do not know what God wants to do, or what He wants us to do, then how can there be good government? The leaders are misled, and they are mislead ing others. That is the chaotic condition in the world today.

 

BTG: In the United States there has traditionally been the separation of church and state.

Çréla Prabhupäda: I am not talking about the church. Church or no church—that is not the point. The main thing is that the leaders have to accept that there is a supreme controller. How can they deny it? Every thing in nature is going on under the Supreme Lord’s control. The leaders cannot control nature, so why don’t they accept a supreme controller? That is the defect in society. In every respect, the leaders are feeling that there must be a supreme controller, and yet they are still denying Him.

BTG: But suppose the government is atheistic…

Çréla Prabhupäda: Then there cannot be good government. The Americans say they trust in God. But without the science of God, that trust is simply fictitious. First take the science of God very seriously, then put your trust in Him. They do not know what God is, but we do. We actually trust in God. They’re manufacturing their own way of governing. And that is their defect. They will never be successful. They are imperfect, and if they go on manufacturing their own ways and means, they will remain imperfect. There will always be revolutions—one after another. There will be no peace.

BTG: Who determines the regulative principles of religion that people should follow?

Çréla Prabhupäda: God. God is perfect. He does that. According to the Vedic version, God is the leader of all living entities (nityo nityänäà cetanaç cetanänäm). [Kaöha Upaniñad 2.2.13: “The Lord is the chief among all living entities…”] We are different from Him because He is all-perfect and we are not. We are very small. We have the qualities of God, but in very small quantity. Therefore we have only a little knowledge—that’s airplane, but you cannot manufacture a mosquito. God has created the mosquito’s body, which is also an “airplane.” And that is the difference between God and us: we have knowledge, but it is not as perfect as God’s. So the leaders of the government have to consult God; then they will rule perfectly.

 

BTG: Has God also devised the most perfect government?

Çréla Prabhupäda: Oh, yes. The kñatriyas ruled the government in Vedic times. When there was a war, the king was the first to fight. Just like your George Washington: he fought when there was a war. But what kind of president is ruling now? When there is a war, he sits very securely and telephones orders. He’s not fit to be president. When there is war, the president should be the first to come forward and lead the battle.

BTG: But if man is small and imperfect, how can he execute God’s perfect orders for a perfect government?

Çréla Prabhupäda: Although you may be imperfect, because you are carrying out my order, you’re becoming perfect. You have accepted me as your leader, and I accept God as my leader. In this way society can be governed perfectly.

BTG: So good government means first of all to accept the Supreme Being as the real ruler of the government?

Çréla Prabhupäda: You cannot directly accept the Supreme Being. You must accept the servants of the Supreme Being—the brähmaëas or Vaiñëavas [devotees of the Lord]—as your guides. The government men are kñatriyas—the second class. The kñatriyas should take advice from the brähmaëas or Vaiñëavas and make laws accordingly. The vaiçyas should carry out the kñatriyas’ orders in practice. And the çüdras should work under these three orders. Then society will be perfect.