ROME, MAY 27, 1974 — MORNING WALK

 

HIGHLIGHTS: Energy problems will be solved as soon as we are localized…oxen will solve problem of transport…ISKCON should be ideal by practical application…produce your own paper…Kåñëa conscious communism…çüdras will not revolt if they are protected and treated nicely…atom bombs won’t be thrown on the villages… we don’t want cities …when they see our villages are better than the cities, people will take to it

Prabhupäda: So we can discuss some of the problems, about the problems. Discuss what are the problems.

Bhagavän: Now? We shall discuss now?

Prabhupäda: Yes. We are going to solve all problems. Let us have some preliminary discussion, how we are going to solve.

Bhagavän: The biggest problem now is that they have built up a type of society in which their needs are all coming from petrol energy. To produce what they need today is all coming from this petrol energy…

Prabhupäda: Yes, yes.

Bhagavän: …which they are importing basically from the Saudi Arabian countries.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Bhagavän: Now, recently, in the last war in the Middle East, Saudi Arabians raised the price of the oil over double now, I think, as a pressure to the Western countries to do things in their favor. Now they realized that the market for oil is in such great demand that they don’t have to lower the price after the war, but they are going to keep the price. And actually the price is still increasing. So this is causing inflation.

 

Prabhupäda: So this problem will be solved as soon as we are localized. Petrol is required for transport, but if you are localized, there is no question of transport. You don’t require petrol. Suppose in New Vrindaban, we stay, we don’t go anywhere. Then where is the need of petrol?

Bhagavän: Petrol they also use for heating. And electricity.

 

Prabhupäda: No, heating. Heating we can do by wood. By nature.

Dhanaïjaya: I remember, Çréla Prabhupäda, you were saying that all we require is some oxen, and the oxen can carry.

Prabhupäda: Yes. The oxen will solve the problem of transport. That bullock cart. Just like Kåñëa, when He was transferred from Gokula to Nandagräma, so they took all the bullock carts, and within a few hours they transported them, the whole thing, their luggage, family member, everything.

Bhagavän: How far can a bullock cart travel in one day?

Prabhupäda: At least ten miles, very easily, very easily. And maximum he can travel fifteen miles, twenty miles. But when we are localized, we don’t require to go beyond ten miles, five miles. Because we have created a rubbish civilization, therefore one is required to go fifty miles for earning bread, hundred miles, hanging.

Dhanaïjaya: Like in Los Angeles.

Prabhupäda: Why Los Angeles? Everywhere. In New York they are coming from hundred miles. From the other side of the island. First ferry steamer, then bus, then so on, so on. Three hours, four hours, they spend for transport.

Satsvarüpa: Is this an ideal solution or a practical one?

Prabhupäda: This is practical.

Satsvarüpa: Because sometimes we say that actually we cannot change the course of the…

Prabhupäda: No, no. Our society will be ideal by practical application.

Satsvarüpa: If we stopped all the transportation industry, there would be huge unemployment. It would be a great…

Prabhupäda: No, no, we are not going to stop employment. We live like this. You see. If you like, you live like us.

 

Bhagavän: Example.

Prabhupäda: Example.

Satsvarüpa: Not that we dictate to the… Not that we are going to force everyone.

Prabhupäda: No, we are not going to force anyone. “Our mode of living is like this. If you like you can adopt.” Just like we chant Hare Kåñëa mantra. So we are not forcing anyone that “You also, you must chant.” No. We live like this.

 

Dhanaïjaya: So in fact, Çréla Prabhupäda, we should start using bullock carts.

Prabhupäda: Yes. No, first of all you start the community project, as we have already started in New Vrindaban. Make this perfect.

Devotee: There was a big meeting of scientists in Stockholm, Sweden, and they talked that if humanity don’t begin to live in a localized way like you say, in fifty years will be no more source of production.

Prabhupäda: That is rascaldom. We can produce from anywhere, foodstuff.

Bhagavän: What about the question of using petrol for heat? Another import, there is three uses of petrol, or four. One is the transportation, one is heat, another is electricity, and a fourth is they use it to manufacture so many products. So what if someone asks…

 

Prabhupäda: No, you go on products, with your product. You have created problem, you go on with your problem. But we live like this. If you like, you can adopt.

 

Bhagavän: What is our solution to heat? Wood?

Prabhupäda: Heat? Yes, wood. Sufficient.

Dhanaïjaya: But they are saying they used all the wood for paper, so there’s no more wood.

Prabhupäda: No, no. Paper you can make from grass, from cotton. So many other fibers. You don’t require wood. You grow grass, sufficient quantity, and you make paper. Why should you publish so many rubbish literatures? Just like you were telling. The Times of India, the newspaper. (Sound of cars) This is the difficulty, walking on street. Therefore I wanted to go to the park. This is disturbance. So paper, if we don’t produce unnecessary paper, there is no scarcity. From grass. You produce grass, huge quantity of grass, you will get paper. Cotton also. First-class paper. In India also, the rejected paper. From rejected paper you can get another paper also. But they throw it away in your country. Collect this rejected paper and again put it into paper. And why should you publish all rubbish literature? Simply publish Bhägavata and Bhagavad-gétä, that’s all. What is the use of this newspaper, nonsense newspaper, huge, huge quantity? So everything will be nice provided you become ideal. Live in community. Produce your own food. Even you can produce your own paper. You don’t require printing of so many books. If there is one book, others can imitate, or copy. There is no need of printing. Formerly they used to do that…

 

Bhagavän: I didn’t understand that about one book.

Prabhupäda: One book… Suppose we have prepared some small quantity of paper. So you can, if you want that book, you just copy another book.

 

Bhagavän: By hand.

Prabhupäda: Yes. There is no need of printing books.

Bhagavän: Some people would be engaged in copying books.

Prabhupäda: No, you engage yourself. If you want book, that book, you copy yourself. Why someone should be engaged for you? You have got enough time. You are not going to the factory or hundred miles for your earning livelihood. You are on the local space. You have got enough time. You just take, copy. That’s all.

Minimize your unnecessary waste of time. Save time. Chant Hare Kåñëa. Go back to home. This is our idea. Instead of chanting twenty-five rounds, you chant hundred rounds. That is utilization of proper time. Instead of begetting cats and dogs, you just beget one child, Kåñëa conscious. This is the ideal life. What is the use of using sex life unnecessarily? Therefore only for begetting nice child one should have sex life. This is ideal life. Not that you use sex life, contraceptive method. This is all demonism. But they cannot do without it. Because they have no other engagement, they do not know how nice Kåñëa is and how pleasurable it is to reciprocate with Kåñëa. Therefore they go to the dog’s pleasure, sex life on the street and there, on the beach. That’s all. They have been educated like dogs…

 

 

Bhagavän: Now they have… the other day in the paper that India exploded its first atomic bomb.

Prabhupäda: Yes, and therefore yet it has become very great.

Yogeçvara: Now its in the top six.

Prabhupäda: But there is no food. Never mind, you starve, but get your atom bomb. That’s all. This is civilization. There was a cartoon. Somebody approached some politician, and he said, “Yes, I know there is food problem. So I cannot say what can I do for you, but from next week, you will have television.” This is their program, “From next week you will have television.” As if television will minimize my hunger. This is the civilization. Hare Kåñëa.

 

So you ask problem, I will answer. Your energy, problems of energy, petrol, it will be automatically solved. If we are localized, there is no question of petrol.

Bhagavän: You say in the, I think it’s in the Second Canto of Çrémad- Bhägavatam, that by doing so much drilling into the earth, they actually disturbed the rotation of the earth.

Prabhupäda: Yes, we can think like that. Just like the plane, aeroplane, is flying. There is sufficient petrol stock. Is it not? So the world has got sufficient petrol stock. If you do not know how it is being used, maybe due to this petrol, it is floating. And if you take away the petrol stock, it may drop. Everything is there. There is a purpose. Pürëam idam. [Éçopaniñad, Invocation]: “The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes…”] There is full purpose. Not that whimsically petrol is there within the earth. There is some purpose.

 

 

Devotee: What they do, Çréla Prabhupäda, is take the petrol out and put salt water, because they know there can be a imbalance. And then they put salt water in the holes.

Prabhupäda: But water cannot produce gas. Petrol produces gas. Maybe due to that gas, it is floating. Because we have got practical experience. When there is gas, you can float anything.

 

Dhanaïjaya: Like a balloon.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Bhagavän: There is another big problem that now all the opposing countries have built up excess amounts of atomic weapons all pointed at each other. So now they are trying to have big planning conference how to diminish all these weapons.

Prabhupäda: If there is no opposite elements, there is no need of weapons. If I am not your enemy, there is no fear. We are preaching this philosophy, brahma-bhütaù prasannätmä: “As soon as you become Kåñëa conscious, you become jubilant…” [Bg. 18.54] So where is your enemy? Samaù sarveñu bhüteñu. [Bg. 18.54]: “…He is equally disposed toward every living entity…”] Then where is your enemy?

 

Formerly, a man might have become enemy of another man. But this demonic civilization has created nation to nation, country to country, community to community, all enemies. And on account of this communistic enemy, so many innocent people are killed. I have seen in Calcutta during the partition days. So many innocent Hindus and Muslims were killed. Any (indistinct), very quickly this Communistic feeling is aroused, and they fight, like cats and dogs. “Oh, here is another dog! Here is another dog, coming from another neighborhood.” So this is demonic civilization. If you want to go to some country, you have to take visa, permission, this, that, so many. Why? Vedic civilization is “You come to my country. Welcome. You are my guest.” Gåhe çatrum api präptaà viçvastam akutobhayam: “Even one is enemy, when he comes to my house, he is my honorable guest.” And here, they are so much afraid that you keep dogs. The dog is kept here. (loud truck noise)

 

 

Bhagavän: Prabhupäda, I think we better go somewhere else. There is too many cars here.

Prabhupäda: Yes, this isn’t a place for walking. (break)

Yogeçvara: …all the major nations of the world have… These atomic weapons constitute very great storehouses for them. So what should they do with all of these things.

Prabhupäda: They should throw. I throw upon you, you throw upon me. You go to hell, I go to hell. That’s all. This will be the result. And the world will be cleansed of these all rascals. This will be the result. (laughs)

Bhagavän: In the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, you say that even the atomic bombs can be used in Kåñëa’s service.

Prabhupäda: It will be used by nature. Prakåteù kriyamäëäni guëaiù karmäëi. [Bg 3.27: “The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.”]He is thinking that “I am proprietor of this atomic bomb,” but he does not know that the other’s atomic bomb will kill me, and my atomic bomb, I kill him. That’s all. He does not know that. He is thinking, “I am very proud of possessing.” But that will be the cause of his death.

 

Yogeçvara: Is such an atomic war foretold in Bhäg…

Prabhupäda: Yes. Next war means atomic war. All these rascals will be killed automatically. I will kill you, you’ll kill me. That’s all.

Yogeçvara: Is that war to occur in the recent future? Or is that a long way off?

Prabhupäda: Very recent, very recent future. This Communist and Capitalist mentality will bring the next… The Communists will be victorious.

Dhanaïjaya: And after the war what will be the result?

Prabhupäda: After the war they will come to sense. The Communist problem… Communist is not a problem. It is good proposal, but they are missing one point. They are making Lenin the leader. If they make Kåñëa the leader, then the Communistic idea will be very fruitful. They are picking up a rascal leader, but if they pick up the nice leader, God the supreme dictator, then every-thing is all right. They are catching up a dictator, but they do not know that he is rascal number one. But if he catches the Supreme Lord as dictator, as Kåñëa says, sarva-dharmän parityajya, [Bg. 18.66] “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.”]then he will be happy, immediately. Keep amongst yourself and produce. Produce food grain, produce cotton, mustard seed. Self dependent, no use… And we don’t require motorcar. Bullock cart is sufficient. There is no need of going anywhere.

 

Bhagavän: We can make our own cloth? Khädi.

Prabhupäda: Yes, cotton. From cotton you can make your own cloth.

Dhanaïjaya: My wife knows how to spin cloth.

Prabhupäda: Yes. By spinning thread, then you make cloth. Without any price. You grow your cotton and have your cloth. So by machine, they have created so many idle brain, and therefore hippies are coming out, problem. This is the result of this. Because they have created this machine, not everyone is employed, so he must become a hippie. Idle brain is a devil’s workshop.

 

Bhagavän: Even the older generation, even the fathers, they are becom ing…

Prabhupäda: Anyone who hasn’t got sufficient to work, to be employed or engaged, then he must become hippie, vagabond. What is this? Temple?

Dhanaïjaya: This is Mary, the…

Yogeçvara: The Virgin Mary.

Prabhupäda: Yes, it is just like India. They also make some small temple like this.

Yogeçvara: Mahatma Gandhi formulated many such programs for producing khädi, for cow protection and so on.

Prabhupäda: No, he did not make any cow protection.

Yogeçvara: No? We know from your teachings that he was missing the point.

Prabhupäda: Missing… The point is God. He was atheist. He did not believe in Kåñëa.

Yogeçvara: But from the level of application of his programs, is there some value?

Prabhupäda: Yes, that is good program, to produce your own necessities of life. That is good idea. But he could not turn the people, because they are godless. Godless man cannot have any good qualification. I requested him to become God conscious and preach Kåñëa consciousness. He thought it ludicrous. Yes. He was such a godless man.

Yogeçvara: All Indians worship Gandhi.

Prabhupäda: Then how he was killed? That is the proof. Otherwise, how was he killed?

Yogeçvara: Every place we go, we see Indian’s homes, pictures of Gandhi on their tables.

Prabhupäda: You, you have not visited everyone’s house here. The three, four house you have visited. That’s all.

Bhagavän: You haven’t even been to India. (laughter)

Prabhupäda: Don’t talk all this nonsense.

Bhagavän: We can keep horses? We can use horses?

 

Prabhupäda: Oh yes, that is kñatriya. If one does not obey the social structure, he must be forced…The çüdras who do not work properly, he must be forced. Nobody should remain unemployed. The çüdras are inclined. If he has got something to eat, he will not work. You see? Then again he will work when his need, eating. This is çüdra mentality.

Bhagavän: So they have to be kept employed.

Prabhupäda: Yes. They have to be… They should not possess, so that they will work always.

Yogeçvara: Yeah, but that was exactly the situation that sparked the Communist revolution. When the workers felt themselves exploited, then they revolted.

 

Prabhupäda: No, workers, what is that? Exploited?

Yogeçvara: Yes, when the çüdras were seeing that, “Oh, these men, they are keeping us as slaves, and they are making us work just for our food,” then they revolted.

Prabhupäda: No, no. You should keep them such nicely and friendly way, they will never think like that. They will think that you are giving him food and shelter, and you are taking care, giving them protection to their family. Then they will be happy. Then they are happy. When you give them all protection, then they will be happy. Now… Just like in Japan. The industrialists give all men. They give food. They give education. They give shelter. So they work very happily.

 

Bhagavän: They like to work.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Bhagavän: It’s not that people like to be idle.

Prabhupäda: I have seen. And the Dai Nippon directors, they live very poorly, but still, they do not like to give up the service because they are assured of their family, protection, medicine, food, education. They did not like. Never mind, it is not very luxurious. Still, they stick. That I have seen.

Yogeçvara: Because there are good benefits.

 

Prabhupäda: Good benefits, yes. If you are assured of your food, shelter, and necessities of life, then you will never grudge. That was the system.

 

Yogeçvara: Yeah, that’s the difference. The Communists, they were thinking themselves exploited. Actually they were fearful because they were thinking they would not get enough to eat.

Prabhupäda: Yes. No, not only that. The Communists… Everyone has got different propensity. And I have seen in Moscow. You cannot get foodstuff to your selection. That is forced. If I go to the market, I can purchase to my taste, to my selection. But if I have to purchase from the government store whatever nonsense thing they will supply, I will have to accept. Why? I want to eat something today. Why I will be forced to eat something else?

Bhagavän: That’s not good?

Prabhupäda: That’s not good.

 

Bhagavän: So in our community, when we grow things, or we have need of someone’s services, how are these services distributed equally? Let’s say we grow cauliflower, we grow peas, we grow wheat. Is it that each family must be responsible and take only what he needs? How is it distributed?

Prabhupäda: No, no. These varieties… Suppose you grow half a dozen different types of vegetables. So from this half a dozen you can make three dozen varieties. If you are a good cooker. So the varieties of enjoyment will be fulfilled. We have got some desire of different quality of varieties. That you can make. From milk, vegetable, grains, the three things, you can make three hundred varieties.

Bhagavän: But my question is, if the community produces… Some class of men produce vegetables and grains, some class produce cows, some class produce clothes, some class produce necessities for building. How are these things distributed equally?

 

Prabhupäda: Because we are community, we shall distribute whatever necessity for everyone.

Bhagavän: They will come and say, “I need this much cloth, I need this much milk.”

Prabhupäda: No, this much cloth… But if you become Kåñëa conscious, then you will be satisfied with the minimum necessities of life. That is natural. You won’t demand.

 

Yogeçvara: So actually such a program can only be successful proportionately with the rise of Kåñëa consciousness of the people.

Prabhupäda: Yes. That is the main basic principle. Without being Kåñëa conscious, if you arrange like this, that will never be successful.

Yogeçvara: They won’t be satisfied.

Prabhupäda: No.

 

Bhagavän: The kñatriyas make sure that people are correct, acting correctly, that no one is taking more than what they need?

Prabhupäda: Naturally he will do. If you make him Kåñëa conscious, if he attends the Kåñëa conscious program, naturally he will do. Svämin kåtärtho ’smi. [Dhruva Mahäräja: “My dear Lord, I am very satisfied simply to serve Your lotus feet. I do not want any material benefits.”] That is the progress of Kåñëa consciousness. He will be satisfied in any condition of life. That is progress of Kåñëa consciousness. He doesn’t require anything artificially. His main necessity is how to become Kåñëa conscious. So if his attention is diverted in that way, these things will be not important.

 

Yogeçvara: So then we should begin our rural communities like New Vrindaban, and then by training up people in the cities, we can send them gradually…

Prabhupäda: There will be no city. We don’t want cities.

Bhagavän: What about our city temples?

Prabhupäda: No, no. For the time it may go on. But as we make progress, there will be no necessity. City means… For the present we have got. Because the city is there, we are there. But suppose the city is closed. We shall be there? If the city is closed, you still will be there?

Yogeçvara: But we can predict that the cities will go on for quite some time.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes, it will go on, but when they will see that your ideal community is better than city life, people will take to it. Paraà dåñövä nivartate. [From Bg 2.59: “…Ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.”] When one gets a better standard of life, naturally he will give up the lower standard of life.

 

Dhanaïjaya: But won’t the countryside be spoiled if there is an atomic war?

Prabhupäda: Yes. The what is called…?

Dhanaïjaya: Radioactivity.

Prabhupäda: By atomic bomb… What is that?…It says in your country, that you divide the city. I just forget.

Yogeçvara: The result of the bomb?

Prabhupäda: Bomb will be utilized where there are big materialistic persons. Bombs are never thrown in the village.

Bhagavän: The bombs will be thrown in the big cities where the industry is.

Prabhupäda: Yes, yes.

Yogeçvara: The targets will be the cities.

Prabhupäda: Yes. They will be finished first. The bombs are never used at the villages. Downtown, downtown. (laughter) The downtown will be first finished. I have got experience during the last war. The bombs were being thrown in Calcutta, and almost all the bombs were thrown in downtown.