ROME, MAY 28, 1974 — MORNING WALK

 

HIGHLIGHT: Live locally… set the example of how to be ideal

 Dhanaïjaya: In Greenland?

Prabhupäda: Others cannot live locally.

Satsvarüpa: That’s not their karma?

Prabhupäda: No, karma is there. That is another point. My point is that any condition, one can live locally. That is my point. They are supposed to be uncivilized, and they live in the ice cottage. There is no sufficient things for eating. And how they live? That is the point. So why civilized man cannot live locally?

Satsvarüpa: One objection to that is that they say that now cultures have been spread more by all this transportation. You even write that the world is now like a global village. But if everyone just stays in their own place, they won’t know what people and culture is like in other parts of the world, and their view will be more narrow.

 

Prabhupäda: No. They may go sometimes. Just like in India, they used to live locally, but at the same time they used to go to the pilgrimages by walking. It is not prohibited that one should not go out, but when one goes out, he goes out of pleasure, not as obligation. At the present moment, it has become an obligation, that one must go out of his home, of his village, of his country. That is defective. There was no need of so many transports. People remained locally. One has to go for livelihood hundred miles. This is defective.

 

Dhanaïjaya: But people say they travel for education.

Prabhupäda: What education? Hippies? Your education has ended into hippies. Finish that education, nonsense education… You have created this animal civilization. Now they are coming out as naked animals. This is the result. Now you have to reform them. That reformation is Kåñëa con sciousness. So you have to make an example, what is actually human life. Then others will see. You cannot stop them. But some of them, those who are intelligent, they will see, “Yes, here is life.” As they are coming to nakedness, they will come to this, our mode of life. So you have to become an ideal society. You live locally, and be self-sufficient. They will see that it is possible to live locally without movement, and still highly cultured men, self-sufficient. That is required.

 

 

GENEVA, JUNE 6, 1974

BHAGAVAD-GÉTÄ LECTURE: 13.35

 

HIGHLIGHTS: As the body is our field for cultivating Kåñëa conscious ness, so the land is our field for cultivating food…Vedic civilization means every man should produce his own food

Nitäi: “One who knowingly sees this difference between the body and the owner of the body and can understand the process of liberation from this bondage also attains to the supreme goal.”

[kñetra-kñetrajïayor evam

antaraà jïäna-cakñuñä

bhüta-prakåti-mokñaà ca

ye vidur yänti te param

— Bg 13.35]

 

Prabhupäda: In the beginning of this chapter, Arjuna inquired,

prakåtià puruñaà caiva

kñetraà kñetra-jïam eva ca

etad veditum icchämi

 jïänaà jïeyaà ca keçava

[Bg 13.1: “Arjuna said: O my dear Kåñëa, I wish to know about prakåti {nature}, puruña {the enjoyer}, and the field and the knower of the field, and of knowledge and the object of knowledge…”]

Yesterday evening, those gentlemen who came from Protestant Church?

 

Yogeçvara: Yes.

 

Prabhupäda: So they’re talking about what is knowledge. Yes. This is very good question, what is knowledge. So Arjuna wanted to know this knowledge from Kåñëa. Knowledge means to understand this body and the soul. Kñetra-kñetra-jïa. Kñetra means this body, and kñetra-jïa means the owner of the body. Just like if you study your body… “What is this?” Just like we ask any child. Sometimes we play with the child. We ask, “What is this?” He’ll say, “My hand,” or “My head.” So even the child can say that the hand is different from him. We also say, “This is my hand,” “This is my leg,” “This is my head.” We never say, “I head,” or “I hand.” No. “My hand.” It is very simple thing.

 

So Kåñëa, being asked by Arjuna, He’s giving the knowledge that this body is called kñetra. Kñetra means field of activities. Just like in agricultural land. You get a piece of land, and you produce your own food grain, or as you like. The government gives you a piece of land, and you have to pay a little tax, and you can grow your food grains as you like. Similarly, as we wanted, Kåñëa has given us this body. Now we can work with this body as we like. If you want, you can utilize this body for higher elevation, or you can utilize this body for your nonsense purpose and go to hell. That is your choice. Just like somebody is using this body, undergoing austerities, penance, according to the spiritual, regulative life, and one man is using this body only for sense gratification, drinking and sex.

 

 

So it is my choice, to utilize this body as I like, and I also reap the result. The same example: You are given a field, a piece of land. You can grow twice, thrice in a year very nice foodstuff, sometimes pulses, sometimes paddy, sometimes the mustard seed. Any land… In India, we have seen that a cultivator produces three, four kind of food grains in a year. That is the system…That is the system that in India every man is producing his food grains independently. Now it is stopped.

 

 

Formerly, all these men, they used to produce their food grain. So they used to work for three months in a year, and they could stock the whole year’s eatable food grains. Life was very simple. After all, you require to eat. So this Vedic civilization was that keep some land and keep some cows. Then your whole economic question is solved.

Now, in this country, Geneva, I heard there is… I am tasting the milk, first-class milk. I think the world’s best milk. Unless one has got his own cows, one cannot get such nice milk. But I hear also that because there is excess production of milk, they have decided to kill twenty-thousand cows.

Devotee: Last year, they decided to do it, but apparently they didn’t do it. They wanted to do it.

Prabhupäda: Just see how much foolish proposal it is. So for want of God consciousness, this mischievous intelligence can be found. The whole economic question can be solved. If you have got excess, then you can trade, you can send to some place where there is scarcity. But every man should produce his own food. That is Vedic culture. You get a piece of land and produce your family’s foodstuff.

 

But they are… What they are doing? In Australia, in Africa, they have got enough land, but the government… Maybe they have no sufficient men to utilize the land, but they won’t allow any outsider to go there who can produce. I have seen in Africa. Very, very large tract of land was lying vacant, nobody is producing any food. They are producing coffee. That is not the local men. The Britishers who have gone there, They are producing coffee, tea, and keeping some cows for slaughtering. This is going on. In Australia, also, I have seen.

 

…I don’t find many churches here in Geneva. They don’t like to go to church here?

Guru Gauräìga: They say they do.

Prabhupäda: …But don’t find many churches here, so this is not very good sign. People should eat sumptuously, not overeating. Overeating is bad. Not undereating. Yuktähära-vihärasya yogo bhavati siddhaye. Yuktähära, as much as you require, you must eat. Yajïärthe… Annäd bhavanti bhütäni. Either human being or an animal, they must get sufficient food, and that means anna, food grains. So I have studied it very thoroughly. If people produce food grain in all the lands available all over the world, they can feed ten times population than it is at present. Kåñëa has made such arrangement.

 

In the [Éçopaniñad, Invocation], it is said, pürëam adaù pürëam idaà pürëät pürëam udacyate. In the creation of Kåñëa, there cannot be any scarcity. Everything is sufficiently there. Pürëam, it is complete, perfectly made, either this planet, that planet. Everywhere, the living entities are there, and Kåñëa has made provision for every one of them. There is no question of scarcity. But people are not obeying the orders of Kåñëa or the authorities, that “You produce…” Annäd bhavanti bhütäni. Even in Bible, it is said, “Thou shalt not kill.” They are not producing food grains, and they are killing the animals and eating.

 

How they will be happy? It is not possible. Most sinful activities. You produce your food. The bull will help you. And the cows will supply you milk. They are considered to be father and mother. Just like father earns money for feeding the children, similarly, the bulls help producing, plowing, producing food grains, and the cow gives milk, mother. And what is this civilization, killing father and mother? This is not good civilization. It will not stay. There will be catastrophe, waiting. Many times it has happened, and it will happen because transgressing the law of nature, or laws of God, is most sinful. That is sinful. Just like you become criminal by transgressing the law of state, similarly, when you transgress the law of God, then you are sinful. So this example is given: idaà çaréraà kñetram. That means to own a certain piece of land is the basic civilization. Everyone must have a portion of land to produce his food. There will be no economic problem.

 

And we have seen even in our childhood that poor men, the laborer class, servant, they came from village in the town. We were residents of town, Calcutta, The servants class, they would come… Everywhere, not in Calcutta, everywhere. The villagers would come, and the small salary. Even in our young days, we were paying salaries to the servants, twelve rupees, fourteen rupees, without any food.

 

And still they would save at least ten to twelve rupees out of that. And this money, the servant would send to his wife at home, and as soon as there is two hundred rupees, he’ll purchase a piece of land. And in this way, when he has got sufficient land for producing food for the whole family, then he would no more come to city for working. We have seen it.

 

That means as soon as one has a land sufficient to produce, he is safe. His food problem—that is the real problem—is solved. So people are not being trained up to… In America, I have seen. Now the farmers, the father is working on the farm, and the sons, they do not come. They live in the city. This is the tendency all over the world. They are not producing food grains. Therefore there is scarcity. There is scarcity of…

 

 

Especially in a country like India where the population is very big and there is no land available, there must be scarcity of food. Especially the Britishers, they have divided India: Pakistan and Hindustan. So all the food grains are there on the Pakistan side, and in the Hindustan side all the industries are there. So they are fighting. They have no industrial facilities, and they have no agricultural facilities.

 

All policies. They would fight all along. The Britishers wanted that “You have taken your independ ence. All right, you’ll suffer all the time, fighting between your…” This was a policy. So it is going on nicely.

 

So anyway, the whole world situation is degrading, that people are not producing their own food. This is the problem, real problem. Kñetra-kñetra- jïa. This example is given. As every man must possess a piece of land… Therefore this… Because it is very common thing, this example has been given. Kñetra-kñetra-jïa.

 

So as we till our land and gets foodstuff according to my labor, according to my intelligence… Food grains I can produce once twice, thrice, if I work hard. Generally, they work two times: three months, three months. And those who are very lazy, they work three months. But even working for three months, they can acquire foodstuffs for the whole year. That I have seen. So similarly, as we get some land and work for ourself, similarly, this body is also like that land. And I am… This “I,” the soul, I can reap good result or bad result as I work with this

body. This is very similar.

 

This is knowledge. Kåñëa says, idaà çaréraà kaunteya kñetram [Bg. 13.2]. Kåñëa does not say that “Arjuna, you are this body.” That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gétä. Dehino ’smin yathä dehe [Bg. 2.13]. [Within this body, the owner of the body is there. This is the beginning of knowledge. So this knowledge is lacking. Nobody knows that “I am within this body.” Everyone is thinking, “I am this body.” I am American, I am Indian, I am Czechoslovakian, or I am Swiss, and… Everyone is thinking. That means they have no knowledge. All fools and rascals. So the all fools and rascals civilization, how we can be happy?

 

There must be intelligence. They have no intelligence. They are thinking of philanthropic work, but still thinking that “I am this body.” So what that philanthropic work will do? We… With ignorance, with no knowledge, whatever you do, it is foolish. As there are… Sometimes they divide, four classes of men: lazy intelligent, active intelligent, and lazy fool and active fool. The active fool is fourth-class because whatever he’ll do, it is foolish. So result will not be very good. Active fool. So lazy fool is better than the active fool.

 

Just like the monkey. It is active fool. In your country, in the Western country, you don’t see many monkeys. But in India, there are many monkeys. As soon as a monkey will come, he will create some mischief. He’s very busy, jumping here, there, here, here, there, but always creating mischief. So modern civilization… And the Darwin’s theory is that they have come from monkey. (laughter) So they are also doing like that, jumping like monkey, this way, that way, this way, that

way, but always creating mischief.

 

So this is very good example, that idaà çaréraà kñetram. He has given, God has given you a piece of land, this body. Now you work. You make your future with this body. Karmaëä… Because the body is produced according to my karma. Otherwise, why there are so many varieties of body? We are all human beings. Everyone, we are, we possess two hands, two legs. Still, the bodies are different. We don’t find anybody’s body is exactly equal to the other. No. Because we have got different mentality. Every one of us, we are individual soul; we have got different mentality, different propensities, different ideas. So in this way we have got different bodies. This is the science.

 

Science, they are searching out so many things, but they do… Why they cannot explain that why there are varieties of body. Why not exactly equal human being exactly of the same feature, same…? Just like we do some… In mold, the, all the dolls come out of the same body. It is not like that. For each and every living entity, Kåñëa has to prepare a different type of body. Therefore we have got different types of body according to karma.

 

So this is knowledge, that “I have got this body as field.” As one gets the land for cultivating his food grains, according to his labor, according to his choice, similarly, we have got this field of activity. Now we can make our future good or bad according to our choice. Idaà çaréraà kaunteya kñetram iti abhidhéyate [Bg. 13.2]. This is called kñetra, working land. Just like father gives some capital to the son: “You do some business.” Now, you lose the money or increase it hundred times; that depends on you.

Similarly, Kåñëa has given us. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and Kåñëa has given us. The first beginning body is Brahmä, very exalted body. But on account of our abominable activities, from Brahmä, we come down to become the worm of stool. This is called karma, kñetra.

 

There are eight million four hundred thousand species of life, and according to our work, we get some body, some type of body. And if we work in the modes of goodness, then we get still better body in higher planetary system, long duration of life, better standard of living condition, more and more, thousand times, thousand times. Whatever comforts and facilities we have got here on this planet, if we work in the modes of goodness, then we get more and more facilities…

 

Those who are trying to promote themselves in Kåñëa consciousness, Kåñëa says mad-yäjinaù, “Those who are worshiping Me, they come to Me.” So now it is your choice. This body is given to you. Now you make your choice whether you want to have, in this material world, better facilities, better duration of life, or if you want to degrade yourself to the animal life, or if you want to go to Kåñëaloka, everything, whatever you want, you can get. And this is the chance, this human form of body.

 

You make your choice. Therefore Kåñëa says, idaà çaréraà kaunteya kñetram iti abhidhéyate [Bg. 13.2]. It is just like the land of cultivation. Now you cultivate.

idaà çaréraà kaunteya

kñetram ity abhidhéyate

etad yo vetti taà prähuù

kñetra-jïaù iti tad-vidaù

 [Bg. 13.2]

And… Just like the land and the proprietor of land. The proprietor of the land knows that “This is my land.” It is not “I land.” That is ignorance. So people are taking this, that “I am this body.” That is ignorance. If they know, if one knows that “I am not this body; I am proprietor of this body, I’ll have to work with this body for my future,” then that is knowledge. Etad yo vetti kñetra-jïa, knower, one who knows. That is the beginning of knowledge. Then Kåñëa says,

kñetra-jïaà cäpi mäà viddhi

sarva-kñetreñu bhärata

kñetra-kñetra-jïayor jïänaà

yat taj jïänaà mataà mama

 

Kåñëa is giving His opinion, the Supreme Authority, that “If you want to know, if you want to be in knowledge, this is knowledge.” What is that? “That this body, you are not this body; you are the owner of the body.

 

And you should know also that the there is another person. As you are a person, you are owner of this body, there is another person.” Who is that? “That is I am.” Kåñëa says. Kñetra-jïaà cäpi mäà viddhi: “I am also owner of this body.” Actually Kåñëa is the owner of the body. Just like in a, in an apartment, there is the occupier and the landlord…Similarly, Kåñëa is the real owner of this body because Kåñëa has given me this body just to occupy it and work. So far. Not that I am the actual proprietor of this body.

 

 

VÅNDÄVANA, APRIL 20, 1975

CONVERSATION WITH GOVERNOR

 

 

HIGHLIGHTS: Government must maintain varëäçrama…college must train varëas…village must show example

 

Prabhupäda: Secular means government’s duty is that “You call yourself a Hindu. Whether you are acting as Hindu? You call yourself as Muslim. Whether you are acting as Muslim?” This is government’s duty. Govern ment does not say or prefer that “You are Christian. It is not good. You become Hindu.” No, that is not government’s… You remain your Christian, but government’s duty is that whether he is acting as Christian. This is government’s duty. Not that you are acting like a something else, and you are calling yourself Christian. You are acting like a çüdra, and you are advertising yourself as a brähmaëa. So just like a, what is called, quack. If he writes, “Dr. something,” that is punishable. But you are quack. That’s all right. You can take a certificate that you have got some experience. The registered medical practitioner, I think that is… But what is this, that you are proclaiming yourself as a… (chuckles)

 

 

So character means a class of men there must be, maybe very few, but they are actually men of character. Just like I am teaching them no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. This is basic principle. Otherwise, where is his character? You are doing all nonsense, and still, you are proclaiming yourself as brähmaëa. This should be stopped. And a training college should be there how to make a real brähmaëa. I have given the example…

Governor: Vänaprastha college.

 

Prabhupäda: Vänaprastha college, yes. That is the very essential thing at the present moment, that a class of men… Just like the same example: If one wants to become an engineer he must be properly trained up. If he wants to become a medical man he must be properly trained up. Similarly, if one wants to become a brähmaëa, then he must be properly trained up, or even if one does not want, the state should maintain a college where a real brähmaëa is trained up. Just like Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee, when he opened some higher studies of academic qualification, so there was one or two students, and there were three professors drawing at least twelve hundred rupees per month. So twelve hundred rupees per month, that means thirty-six hundred, expenditure, and the income is thirty-six rupees. It is not the question of money, but it is the question of culture. So even though at the present moment people are not inclined to become a brähmaëa, I tried it. I tried it before starting this movement. I tried to some friends that “You have got four sons. Give me one son. I shall train him how to become a perfect brähmaëa.” Nobody agreed. They said, “Swamiji, (Hindi),” But if there is not a ideal class of brähmaëa, then how you can say that you become moralist? If there is no example of moralist, how you can ask people, “Become moralist”?

 

Governor: The thing is a very intensive and completely dedicated course on making an individual a brähmaëa. (indistinct)… Then the second thing is not that intensively, but in a village (indistinct) all people.

 

Prabhupäda: All people.

Governor: No, all people… One or two could be taken out of many.

Prabhupäda: No, that I asked him. Actually the idea is in the society as it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gétä, cätur-varëyaà mayä såñöaà guëa-karma-vibhägaçaù. [Bg. 4.13]: “According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me…”]The guëas are there. Just like naturally one is taking education just to become a politician, one is taking education how to become a high character saintly person. That natural inclination is already there, but that is not being properly harnessed. Therefore a regular educational institution should be there where proper training of brähmaëa, proper training of kñatriya, vaiçya, must be given. These four divisions must remain there. And the, so far the brahminical culture, that must be there. Otherwise you cannot say that you become moralist. Where is the example of moralist? A section of person must be there, fully moralist. That ideal section is now lacking. Therefore, what I have written, that?

 

 

 

Brahmänanda: “As there are different sections of educational institutions, there must be one institution how to train up perfect brähmaëas with ideal characters as above mentioned in the Bhagavad-gétä. If there is a section of people of ideal character, say 5 percent, the other 95 percent, by seeing their example, will follow. In other words, a section of the society must be of ideal character. That is essential.”

 

Prabhupäda: So therefore this varëäçrama college is very essential.

Governor: Both intensive and extensive training.

Prabhupäda: Yes. Proper training. It may be extensive and intensive… Doesn’t matter.

 

Governor: You said 5 percent and 95 percent.

Prabhupäda: Ninety-five percent may remain non-brähmaëa. But this 5 percent, if they are strongly brahminical, then others will follow. Ekaç candras tamo hanti na ca täräù-sahasraçaù. [Cäëakya Paëòita: “If there is one moon, that is sufficient. What is the use of millions of stars?”] You have got millions of stars. Nobody cares for them. But people are looking after “When the moon will rise? When the moon will rise?” That one moon is sufficient than millions of stars. So this is the suggestion. Then?

 

Brahmänanda: “The propagation of mänava-dharma. Regarding propaga tion of mänava-dharma, mänava-dharma means the activities of the human beings. So the distinction between mänava-dharma and paçu- dharma is that in the animal society there is no idea of God consciousness. God consciousness can only be propagated in human society. In the animal society they may be physically stronger than the humans like the tiger and the elephant or many such animals, but they cannot be educated spiritually.”

 

Prabhupäda: They may be very strong, our tiger and elephant, but they have no capacity to accept any education. Then?

Brahmänanda: “But in human society, even though one may be a low-grade member of the society, he can be trained up to be purified as a first-class brähmaëa. It only requires training. Therefore, manava-dharma means to impregnate a human being with spiritual knowledge. A human being must be educated spiritually. That means he must know that he is not this body. Kåñëa teaches this idea in the beginning of the Bhagavad- gétä:

dehino ’smin yathä dehe

kaumäraà yauvanaà jarä

tathä dehäntara präptir

dhéras tatra na muhyati

 [Bg. 2.13]

[Bg 2.13: “As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.”]

This is the beginning of spiritual education, that every one of us is not this body. Unfortunately the whole world is in darkness, and therefore every human is identifying with this body and thinking wrongly, “I am Indian,” “I am American,” “I am brähmaëa,” “I am this,” “I am that.” To drive away this misconception of life is actually manava-dharma. We must know that we are not this body but spirit soul, and as such, we are part and parcel of God and therefore qualitatively one with God, exactly like a small particle of gold is also gold as is the gold from the big gold mine. But quantitatively the particle of gold is not equal to the gold in the mine. This is very elaborately described in the Bhagavad-gétä, and if we accept these principles of Bhagavad-gétä as manava-dharma, then the whole world will appreciate. And this is being done by our Kåñëa consciousness movement.

 

“Point Five: Elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saàsåti which are useful and wholesome but which are being discarded in practice, and those which may be considered to be unsuitable in the present times. Number Five: Regarding elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saàsåti…”

Prabhupäda: This kind of understanding at the present time, at the present time… (Hindi) So we give reference, that “Present time, everyone is fallen.” But truth is always the same, not at present time. So the real truth is that ideal man of character there must be. Because at the present moment there is no character, there is no moral education, therefore we have to adapt according to them, no. The pakkä [first-class], he must be moralist. It doesn’t matter that “People at the present time, they do all immoral activities; therefore we have to adjust.” No. Strictly one should be moralist. There is no question of present time or past time. That should be real point of view. Then?

 

 

Brahmänanda: “Regarding the elements in our tradition relating to dharma and saàsåti, we must adopt the whole varëa and äçramas as they are recommended in all the çästras. If you give up these directions of the çästras, that is neither dharma nor saàsåti, at least in the Indian tradition, as it is directed in the Bhagavad-gétä that the four divisions of social and the four divisions of religious systems like brähmaëa, kñatriya, vaiçya, çüdra, brahmacäré, gåhastha, vänaprastha and sannyäsé must be adopted. Otherwise there is no tradition of bhäratéya sanskåiti.”

 

Prabhupäda: If you give up this varëäçrama-dharma, then where is your bhäratéya sanskåiti? But they are trying to give it up, abolish this. Then where is bhäratéya sanskåiti? Then

Brahmänanda: “Six: Injunctions of çästras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. So the mutual relationship of dharma and politics in the light of our history and tradition can only be revived when we observe the system of varëäçrama. It is actually like this: the brähmaëa is like the head, and the kñatriya is like the arms, the vaiçya is the stomach or the abdomen, and the çüdra is like the legs. Similarly, spiritually, the brahmacäré is the trained-up disciple, the gåhastha is the trained-up householder, the vänaprastha is experienced as a retired gentleman, and the sannyäsé is completely in the renounced order of life for spiritual advancement. There is no question of the head being in an exalted position without the cooperation of the leg. When there is a pin-prick in some part of the leg, the head immediately takes it very seriously and takes out the thorn in some part of the leg. Similarly, whenever there is some outside attack, the arms or the hands spread to protect the whole body. In the same way, within the abdomen there is the machinery of digesting foodstuffs, and after digestion the secretion turns into blood and it is infused throughout the whole anatomical structure of the body. Similarly, the cooperation between the head, arms, stomach and legs is the perfect situation of the human society.”

 

 

Governor: Coordination.

 

Prabhupäda: Coordination. As head is also trying to maintain the body nicely, this arm is also. Now this has been nationally centralized. So that is the idea. Not that “Because I am head, brähmaëa, oh, here is a çüdra. Oh, don’t see his face.” Why? Çüdra is also required. Leg is also required. Head is also required.

 

Governor: It is an harmonious coordination.

Prabhupäda: Yes, harmonious coordination. But the çüdras were hated like anything, and they became Mohammedans. And there was no re-accep tance. Formerly, from Caitanya literature we understand, that if the Mussulman will take little water from the badna (?) and sprinkle like this, then you become Mohammedan. In this way all these Indians, they became Mohammedan. And the result is now the Pakistan, and you go on fighting forever. Why these innocent persons who were by sprinkling water became Mohammedan, why they do not claim? Kåñëa and the çästra, it does not say that if one has fallen, you cannot reclaim him. No, why not reclaim him? Mäà hi pärtha vyapäçritya ye ’pi syuù päpa… [Bg. 9.32]: “O son of Påthä, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth— women, vaiçyas {merchants} and çüdras {workers}—can attain the supreme destination.”] This is by birth. And of course, in our country everything was taken by birth. Now it is going on. But even by birth one is low-grade…

 

 

 

Governor: No, birth also was built up by a tradition. They were brought up in that atmosphere.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. It doesn’t matter. But if he wants to be elevated, he should be given chance. That is the verdict of all çästras. Now we are feeling, India, this difficulty. Because they are Europeans, Americans, the so-called big societies, they are not agreeable to accept them. You see? Although çästra does not say so. Çästra says, mäà hi pärtha vyapäçritya ye ’pi syuù päpa-yonayaù. “If one takes shelter of Me, even he is born in päpa-yoni”… Striyaù vaiçyäs tathä…, te ’pi yänti paräà gatim, “they can also be elevated to the highest exalted position.” And in the Çrémad- Bhäga vatam it is, many places it is said that a low-born person can be elevated. Caëòalo ’pi dvija çreñöho hari-bhakti-paräyaëaù. [“Even if one is born in the family of a caëòäla, if one engages in the devotional service of the Lord, he becomes the best of brähmaëas. But even a brähmaëa who is devoid of devotional service is on the level of the lowest dog-eater.”]

 

Governor: We have right example of Välméki [Vedic sage and author of the Rämäyaëa].

Prabhupäda: Ah, Välméki. There were many. There were, are many. Närada. Närada was a son of a maidservant, çüdra. He had no father. So däsé-putra. And he became Närada. So where is the restriction? Similarly, in the Jabalopaniñad, Satyakäma Jabala, he was also a prosti tute’s son. And he approached Gautama Muni, “You kindly make me your disciple.” Gautama Muni said, “What you are?” “I am my mother’s son, that’s all.” “Then who is your father?” “That I do not know.” “Ask your mother.” So mother replied, “My dear son, I do not know who is your father.” And he came and said to Gautama Muni, “Sir, my mother also does not know who is my father.” Then Gautama Muni said, “Yes, you are brähmaëa. Come on. I shall…” Because speaking truth. So unless you are a son of a brähmaëa, you cannot speak such secret truth. Nobody will say that “I do not know who is my father.” It is social scandal even up to date. But he plainly said that “My mother does not know who is my father.” So immediately Gautama Muni accepted him as brähmaëa: “You are telling the truth.” Satya çamaù damaù. Because it is first qualification.

So such a high cultural life. Now we should take standard çästra and follow and establish educational institution to train them. Otherwise, simply by crying in the wilderness, what will be the result? Now some result is there because I am practically training them. And before me, all the swamis went there. They lectured, that’s all. So what is the meaning of lectures unless you train them? That “Our

Hindu religion is very great, very nice, and whatever you like, you can do. It doesn’t matter.” Then where is the training? Now little effect is there because I am training them. As soon as one comes to me for becoming disciple, I place before him that “You have to give up all these habits.” When he agrees, then I accept him. And therefore I have got some selected, trained-up men. So there must be this training college, institution, and proper training according to the çästra. Then there is possibility of changing the whole situation. Then what is next?

 

 

 

Brahmänanda: “The injunctions of çästras regarding charity and how it should be practiced in the present conditions. The injunction of the çästra about charity is that charity should be given to qualified brähmaëa or sannyäsé because they will spend it for the benefit of the whole human society. This is called charity in goodness. In the çästras there…”

Prabhupäda: Just like we are getting charity, crores of rupees, but we are spending for this Kåñëa consciousness movement, not for drinking. And if charity is given to a drunkard, what he will do? He will drink only. Therefore charity is recommended to be given to the brähmaëa and the sannyäsé, no other else. Then?

 

Governor: The apatra-dana.

Prabhupäda: Ah? Apatra-dana, that is third-class. Go on.

 

Brahmänanda: “This is called charity in goodness. In the çästras there is no recommendation for giving charity to the unqualified men. In this connection I am enclosing a copy of one chart reproduced in our Back to Godhead, ‘Charity in ignorance.’”

Prabhupäda: She has written one article in our Back to Godhead. I am quoting from that.

Brahmänanda: “…in ignorance performed at an improper time and place to an unworthy person like a gambler or a drunkard, or contemptuously, without respect. Charity in passion, performed to get something in return with a desire for fruitive results or in a grudging mood. Charity in goodness, performed as a duty and at the proper time and place to a worthy person and with no expectation of material returns. And charity in pure goodness, performed only to satisfy the Supreme Lord. In the çästras charity in passion and ignorance is completely rejected, although people do it unconsciously. Charity in goodness only is recommended.

 

“Point Eight: Proper and beneficial use of the income and property of the institutions and how far the policies of the government and the exercise of its authority in its behalf are just and proper. Çréla Rüpa Gosvämé was the chief minister of the government of Nawab Hussein Shah. He gave us a good example how to divide the property in the society. Fifty percent of the income must be spent for Kåñëa, twenty-five percent of the income should be spent for family, and twenty-five percent should be kept in reserve for emergency expenditure. Spending fifty percent of the income for Kåñëa means for the whole society by encouraging the Kåñëa consciousness movement.

 

“Point Nine: The role of manava-dharma pariñat. I think that if the manava-dharma pariñat takes these suggestions of mine very seriously, certainly it will be of great benefit to the Indians and the whole world. The Kåñëa consciousness movement is going on on this principle, and if the pariñat inaugurated by you cooperates with us, certainly we can render a very great service to the human society. So far manava-dharma is concerned, it should not be restricted within the Indian borders, because human beings are in all parts of the world.

 

“Point Ten: The manava-dharma mission, its constitution and program. Therefore the constitution of manava-dharma or the institution of varëäçrama must be interesting for the whole world, and it should be exemplified by practical demonstration.

“The immediate program should be village organization as Mahatma Gandhi contemplated. In India the majority of the population is in the villages. The difficulty is that there is no sufficient supply of water to produce food grains. Mother Nature, or Mother Durgä, punishes the godless demons by restricting the supply of food grains. The godless demons are very enthusiastic to produce motorcars, skyscrapers, brothels, and cinemas, and many unnecessary demands of the body, but they are not interested in producing food grains. This is the defect of the modern society. If food grains are produced in an organized way, human society can produce ten times what they are presently producing. In the Bhagavad- gétä it is confirmed,

annäd-bhavanti bhütäni

parjanyäd anna-sambhavaù

yajïäd bhavati parjanyo

yajïaù karma-samudbhavaù

 [Bg. 3.14]: “All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajïa [sacrifice}, and yajïa is born of prescribed duties.”] I hope you will give your serious consideration to my suggestions, and I am prepared to cooperate with you to my best capacity if you think my suggestions are right.”

 

 

Prabhupäda: This suggestion is to you also. (chuckles) And if you can do these things organizedly, certainly it will be beneficial to the whole human society.

Governor: Any elaboration of what you refer to as vänaprastha college?

Prabhupäda: No, varëäçrama. Vänaprastha, just like we have got this building. Now, if somebody retires and engages himself in Kåñëa consciousness movement, they are welcome. They can take prasädam and stay here. It is not possible at the present moment that gentleman will live in the forest. That is not possible. Then here is a place, Våndävana, holy place. We have constructed this building, and people should take vänaprastha, or retirement, and may come here and live peacefully and cultivate spiritual knowledge.

 

Brahmänanda: I think the governor was asking about the varëäçrama college.

Prabhupäda: Ah. Varnäçrama college, that training factual brähmaëa. And the government should be, as I explained to you, that if one is proclaiming himself as a brähmaëa, he must act as a brähmaëa. If one is proclaiming as a kñatriya, he must act as a kñatriya. Otherwise, there will be no restriction, and a çüdra will claim to be brähmaëa. That will create a disturbing situation. In Påthu Mahäräja’s time it was strictly prohibited that… That is stated in Bhagavad-gétä, sva-dharme nidhanaà çreyaù para-dharmo bhayävahaù. [Bg 3.35: “Destruction in the course of perform ing one’s own duty is better than engaging in another’s duties, for to follow another’s path is dangerous.”] So if one is claiming to be brähmaëa he must be brähmaëa. That is another way of reforming the society. And nowadays everyone is a çüdra, and somebody is claiming, “I am brähmaëa,” “I am kñatriya,” “I am this,” “I am that.” Formerly the brähmaëas [were] strictly following. They would not accept… In the çästras it is said that the brähmaëa in bad time may become a kñatriya. Just like Dronäcärya. He was brähmaëa, but he became a kñatriya for certain reason, and acting like kñatriya, although he was respected as brähmaëa, but he was acting as a kñatriya.

So it is advised that brähmaëa may take the profession of a kñatriya and up to the vaiçya. But if he takes the profession of a çüdra, then he is fallen. Then he is fallen. So this cultural institution should now be introduced. And the other countries, they are still respectful to the Indian culture. That’s a fact. I have studied. So if we keep ourself in our, what he has mentioned, samsriti?

 

 

Brahmänanda: Bhäratéya samskriti.

Prabhupäda: Bhäratéya samskriti. It will be very respectfully accepted. Why should we imitate them? That is… Western civilization is not brahminical culture. There is no brahminical culture. And brahminical culture is needed. That is the head. That is the brain. And a little bit of this brahminical culture, because I am distributing and they are accepting it so nicely… So in our India, in a place like Våndävana, Naimisaranya, like that, many people will come, if varëäçrama college is established.

 

 

NEW ORLEANS, AUGUST 1, 1975

WALK AROUND NEW TÄLAVANA FARM

 

HIGHLIGHTS: How to utilize the bulls…living off the land…milking cows…feed crops versus food crops…how to use machines

 

Nityänanda: Way over the hill and back down there is all ours. In this field we have the calves. And in this field here we have the big cows.

Prabhupada: It is not now utilized?

Nityänanda: Not… No. We are just growing hay. Grass for hay. We can sell the hay in the winter for a good price.

Prabhupada: It is not possible to walk. (break) …it is born?

 

Nityänanda: This one? Last week. His name is… Her name is Lakñmé. There is more over here. (break) Bull calves. We are getting more bulls than females.

 

Prabhupada: Why?

 

Nityänanda: I don’t know.

 

Prabhupada: Then how utilize the bulls?

 

Nityänanda: To plow?

 

Prabhupada: Plow, transport. You have to engage more men for plowing. Two bulls will be required for each plow.

 

Nityänanda: We can go this way maybe? See the sugarcane?

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Jagadéça: This is not taking this yet?

 

Prabhupada: No. Why?

 

Nityänanda: We just cut it two days ago, and then it rained. We have to wait for it to dry before you can…

 

Prabhupada: They will not be spoiled.

 

Nityänanda: Yes, if it stays here too long, it will spoil.

 

Prabhupada: And it rains.

 

Devotee: We will take it to the garden.

 

Prabhupada: Then it will be soil? It will be fertilizer soil? Or no. When it is decomposed? (break) Drinking water?

 

Nityänanda: Milk.

 

Prabhupada: Milk. (laughter) That is meant for calves? Those milk?

 

Nityänanda: Yes.

 

 

 

Prabhupada: What is this?

 

Nityänanda: The barn.

 

Prabhupada: No, this part.

 

Nityänanda: Oh, that’s the door. It fell off. These are orange trees here.

 

Prabhupada: Oh. How long it will take to grow?

 

Nityänanda: Well, some down here already have a few oranges, but it will take a few years before they give a lot. They are very sweet kind. (break)

Prabhupada: So small still. They are growing. (break)

 

Nityänanda: …sugarcane here. (break)

 

Prabhupada: …grow very high. (break) …trees?

 

Nityänanda: Pine trees.

 

Brahmänanda: You can use those for making the cabins, cottages?

 

Nityänanda: Yes. (break)

 

Prabhupada: …natural arrangement. Jungles—you cut the tree, make your home, and balance you make fuel. And the ground, plow and grow your food. That’s all, natural.

 

Jagadéça: Everything.

 

Prabhupada: In India still, in the villages they do not know, other than this wood fuel, anything else. They are misusing these trees by cutting, manufacturing paper, heaps of paper, in each house throwing daily. They do not read, but they are supplied heaps of paper and cutting these trees. Simply waste. Now wood and paper shortage all over the world. It takes so much time to grow, and one day they cut hundreds of trees like this and put into the paper mill. And heaps of paper is given every house, and he throws away. Then you bring garbage tank. In this way, waste.

 

 

Nityänanda: There are some beehives down here behind this building. I have twelve, and every year we can get hundreds of pounds of honey. Honey is very nice because it does not spoil, just like ghee. It can keep for many, many months, or a long time. We can go up here to see the cows if you like. Right now they are milking them.

 

Prabhupada: So if we go, it will be disturbed?

 

Nityänanda: Oh, no.

 

Prabhupada: This is one sugarcane each? No. Two, three?

 

Nityänanda: Yes, at least three. People here in the country, they have lots of land,

and they can grow the sugarcane very easily, but they will rather go to the store to buy the sugar.

 

Prabhupada: Because they want to live in the city. That is the… Here if they grow, then they will be engaged here. They cannot go to the city.

Brahmänanda: They grow cash crops, make money, and then go spend it in the city.

Nityänanda: The principal livelihood of our neighbors is to grow cows for slaughter.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That is all over Western countries.

 

Nityänanda: They don’t have to work. They simply put some cows in their field, and when the price is high, they sell them. In this way they live.

 

Brahmänanda: What is the attitude of the neighbors to us here? They like us?

 

Nityänanda: Pretty friendly.

 

Brahmänanda: There’s a papaya.

 

Prabhupada: They grow nicely here?

 

Nityänanda: Er, we’re trying. I don’t know yet.

 

Devotee (3): Would you like to be fanned, ShrilaPrabhupada?

 

Harikeça: Just keep the flies away.

 

Prabhupada: He is very friendly to the small calves, this child?

 

Nityänanda: Yes. That’s my boy.

 

Prabhupada: Oh.

 

Nityänanda: His name is Vimala.

 

Jagadéça: He chases them all over.

 

Prabhupada: Just see. That is the difference between animal and man. A child can control so many calves. Krishna was doing that. One stick in the hand of a child can control fifty cows. The child is controller of many cows; a man is controller of many children. In this way, controller, controller, controller, over, over, over… When there is final controller, that is Krishna. Éçvaraù paramaù Krishnaù [Bs. 5.1].[Brahma-saàhitä 5.1: “The Supreme Lord is Krishna.”] This is the definition of Krishna: “The final controller.”

 

Nityänanda: Here is the cows here. We can see them from here.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Nityänanda: Inside the barn they are milking two at a time. And upstairs we keep all the hay.

 

Brahmänanda: You keep figures on how much each milk per cow every day?

 

Nityänanda: You hear it?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Then how the milk will be utilized?

 

Nityänanda: We make sweet rice and burfi, we take the cream to make butter and ghee, and all extra milk is made into curd. So it is all used. Thirty gallons a day.

 

Prabhupada: One gallon means 6 pounds?

 

Nityänanda: Eight and a half.

 

Prabhupada: Eight and a half pounds. In Vrindaban they get 1,000 pounds daily,

New Vrindaban. What is that cottage?

 

Nityänanda: That what?

Devotees: Cottage there.

Nityänanda: That’s a little house for the pump, water pump.

Prabhupada: This fencing was done before?

Nityänanda: Before. This farm was once owned by a person who grew race horses for racing and gambling.

Prabhupada: Racing is also gambling.

Brahmänanda: How much did you pay for it?

Nityänanda: The farm? 170,000 [U.S. dollars]. This field here is millet. It’s a grass for the cows to eat. They give lots of milk because they eat this grass. Very nutritious.

 

Prabhupada: You are not producing for man?

Nityänanda: Pardon?

Prabhupada: Any grains for man?

Nityänanda: No, we’re not growing any grains for man right now. We have fruit trees in the yard. Pears, peaches, plums, figs.

Prabhupada: Some growing?

Nityänanda: Not very much. They are very young. We just planted them. In a few years we will get lots of fruit.

 

Prabhupada: Here the land is mixed with some stones? No.

 

Nityänanda: I think they put this here, this gravel.

Prabhupada: There is no mango tree here? No.

Nityänanda: No what?

Brahmanada: Mango trees.

Nityänanda: We have some growing at the house.

Prabhupada: Vegetables you are growing?

Nityänanda: Yes. We have a garden across the street. All these big trees are pecan trees. We have twenty. All this land across the road here that is cleared is ours, all the way up to the trees.

Prabhupada: (reading sign?) “Cow protection and God consciousness. Visitors welcome.” That’s nice. So, which way we shall go now? Cow protection, they are surprised: “What is this nonsense, cow protection?” Huh? Do they say? “Cow is for eating, and you are protecting?” There are falls?(?)

Nityänanda: Falls?(?) No. This is our small garden.

Prabhupada: Fruits and flowers. No, only fruits. What you are doing, flowers?

Nityänanda: This is okra.

Prabhupada: Oh, okra.

Nityänanda: And sweet potatoes. And we have eggplants, tomatoes, and peppers here.

Prabhupada: They give daily some fruits?

Nityänanda: Yes. And then we grow potatoes too.

Prabhupada: Oh, where? Which side?

Nityänanda: Well, the spring crop was already harvested. We have to plant the fall potatoes in a few weeks. We’ll put them over there by the fence.

Prabhupada: So it is nice farm. This is squash?

Nityänanda: That’s a cantaloupe plant.

Prabhupada: Oh, cantaloupe. You can grow cantaloupe here?

Nityänanda: Yes.

Prabhupada: And also watermelon?

Nityänanda: Yes.

Jagadéça: There is one big watermelon on the vine up there. Perhaps it’s ready to eat.

Prabhupada: We are getting similar land, 600 acres, in Hyderabad.

Nityänanda: We can go this way, here. This is all our machinery here.

Prabhupada: Hm. So already some machine idle. You had to spend so much, but they are lying idle. That is not good. That is the defect of machine. If you cannot ply it, then it is dead loss.

Brahmänanda: If you cannot what?

Prabhupada: It is dead loss if you cannot work with the machine.

Brahmänanda: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: But when you go to purchase you have to pay lots of money. Now they will be rusty with water and gradually useless. How much money you have invested?

 

Nityänanda: Thousands.

Prabhupada: Just see. This is the defect of machine. If you cannot utilize it, then it is dead loss.

Brahmänanda: Where are the tractors kept?

Nityänanda: One’s at the house, and one’s in the field.

Prabhupada: So they have to be utilized or rejected, these machines?

Nityänanda: Yes, they all have a purpose. We use them from time to time.

Prabhupada: But now they are kept open and the…

 

 

Nityänanda: Well, we are building a shed to keep them out of the rain.

Prabhupada: In the meantime it will be finished. By the time you finish your shed, it is finished. Çästre çästre dal phariyaga.(?) “Some women were dressing to go to a fair, and when they were dressed, the fair was finished.” (laughter) Utilize them. Otherwise, while they are in working order, sell them. Don’t keep in that way, neglected way. Either utilize it or sell it at any cost. Otherwise they are useless.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada? A materialist or someone who wouldn’t know, he may say that when the bull is not plowing, all he is doing is eating. You have to pay money to feed him grain or to grow grain to feed the bull.

Prabhupada: They will grow, and they will eat. Rather, they will help you for your eating. The father also eats, but he maintains the family. Therefore the bull is considered as father and the cow as mother. Mother gives milk, and the bull grows food grains for man. Therefore Caitanya Mahäprabhu first challenged that Kazi that “What is your religion, that you eat your father and mother?” Both the bulls and the cows are important because the bull will produce food grain and the cow will give supply milk. They should be utilized properly. That is human intelligence. This is filling up with paddy or…? No?

Nityänanda: With food for the cows. This one has forage or fodder, and that one has grain.

 

Prabhupada: So everything is for the animals. Nothing for the man?

Nityänanda: The cows give us milk.

Prabhupada: That’s all? And you are not growing any food grains? Why?

Nityänanda: Er… We’ve been trying to establish self-sufficient cow protection program first, to grow our own food for the cows.

Brahmänanda: There is no land available for growing rice or wheat?

Nityänanda: Yes, but the number of devotees we have to do it…

Brahmänanda: But you have so many machines.

Prabhupada: All these machines require oiling and keeping nicely. Otherwise it will spoil.

 

 

Devotees in distance: All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Prabhupada: Jaya. Hare Krishna. They are starting?

Brahmänanda: They are starting back.

Nityänanda: Down the road we have fifteen acres of sorghum, grain for the cows.

Prabhupada: And everything for the cows, but what for the man? They will give everything for cows because they will eat cows, other farmers. But you utilize the animals for growing your food.

 

Brahmänanda: The idea is we should maintain the animals, but then the animals should provide foodstuffs for the men.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmänanda: And that way there is cooperation.

Prabhupada: Yes. The animals, bulls, should have helped… instead of that machine. Then it is properly utilized. And others, they cannot utilize these animals. Therefore, what they will do? Naturally they will send to slaughterhouse. But we are not going to send to the slaughterhouse. Then what we will do? They must be utilized. Otherwise simply for growing food that the cows and bulls we engage ourself? You are already feeling burden because there are so many bull calves. You were asking me, “What we shall do with so many bulls?”

Nityänanda: Well, when they grow up we will train them as oxen.

Prabhupada: No, what the oxen will do?

 

Nityänanda: Plow the fields.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted. Transport, plowing fields. That is wanted. And unless our men are trained up, Krishna conscious, they will think, “What is the use of taking care of the plows (cows)? Better go to the city, earn money and eat them.”

NEW ORLEANS, AUGUST 1, 1975