Октября 1976 года - интервью для прессы

 

 

Основное содержание беседы: Мы не только воспеваем, мы даем им работу… варнашрама - это не кастовая система:

 

 

Гопала Кришна: Это письмо от Шри Амбариша Саркара, генерального секретаря окружного комитета Конгресса Надии. «У меня была возможность посетить Шри Маяпур Чандродая Мандир 12 августа 1975 года. Это абсолютно религиозное учреждение. Джаяпатака Свами посвятил все свои усилия и усилия организации и пропаганде священного имени Господа Шри Чайтаньи Махапрабху. Я впечатлен его очаровательной манерой и силой. Хотя это религиозное учреждение, эта организация оказывает множество социальных услуг. Многие бедные и обездоленные семьи получили возможность работать и в то же время стали поклонниками Господа Шри Чайтаньи. Чтобы привлечь этих рабочих, уже было создано так много промышленных центров, как ткацкие станки, полиграфия и т. Д. Я желаю этой организации с ее помощью местных жителей всяческих успехов».

Шрила Прабхупада: Мы не только воспеваем, мы даем им работу. Мы пытаемся стать самодостаточными, та же идея деревенской организации Ганди, чтобы они не выходили из деревни. Они будут довольны, деревенская экономика. Это то, что мы делаем.

 

Гопала Кришна: На самом деле, Прабхупада сейчас делает то же самое в Америке.

 

Шрила Прабхупада: В Америке девять, одиннадцать таких центров.

 

Гопала Кришна: Фермы. Это отзыв местного жителя от О.П. Барадраджа, директора государственного колледжа для мужчин, Чандигарх.

 

Прабхупада: Одну минуту.Возможно вы один из представителей Novara Times?

 

Интервьюер: Да, он здесь.

Прабхупада: Да. Итак, вы опубликовали, я думаю, двумя годами ранее, о нашем Новом Вриндаване. И вы заявили, что это чудесная земля, что… Мы защищаем коров в стране, где их едят люди. Их основная пища, говядина, и они принимают это движение, защищая коров.

 

Интервьюер: Что это за области?

 

Шрила Прабхупада: Западная Вирджиния, Филадельфия, Новый Орлеан и где? Майами, Канада, Ванкувер. Как это.

 

Интервьюер: Итак, если вы не возражаете, что плохого в том, что люди едят говядину? Что в этом плохого?

 

Шрила Прабхупада: Плохое означает, что вы становитесь плохими. Вот и все. Вы можете видеть, что это…

 

Интервьюер: Но мы можем есть козье мясо и мясо других животных.

 

Прабхупада: Да. Но дело в том, что о корове особенно говорят в

Бхагавад-гита, криши-го-ракшйа ваниджйам вайшйа-карма свабхава-джам. [Bg. 18.44]: «Земледелие, защита коров и торговля — таковы занятия, соответствующие природе вайшьев …»] Вы должны производить достаточно зерна с помощью сельского хозяйства и защищать коров. Это означает, что если у вас есть достаточно зерна для еды и если у вас достаточно молока для получения питательных веществ, то весь ваш экономический вопрос решен. Аннад бхаванти бхутани. [Из Бг 3.14: «Тела всех существ зависят от злаков, которые растут благодаря дождям. Дожди выпадают, когда люди совершают ягью, а ягья (жертвоприношение) рождается из выполнения предписанных Ведами обязанностей.».] Если вы получаете достаточно еды, то не может быть и речи о беспокойстве. Все довольны. Животное и человек. Итак, вы должны занимать этим производством. Это рекомендация Бхагавад-гиты.

Интервьюер: Сэр, в современных технологиях…

 

Шрила Прабхупада: Современный, мы не говорим о современном или... Мы говорим...

 

Интервьюер: В этом веке, как вы знаете, основной инструмент производства - трактора, механизация сельского хозяйства.

 

Шрила Прабхупада: Итак, это ваша интерпретация. Но мы пытаемся представить Бхагавад-гиту такой, какая она есть. Это наша миссия. Вы производите достаточное количество зерна и обеспечиваете защиту коров, чтобы зерно и молоко приносили вам все экономические выгоды. Вы останетесь довольны. Вот и все. Мало того, я практически убедился, что по Божьей воле на этой планете так много земли, что вы можете производить продукты питания в десять раз больше, чем все население. Но они/люди этого не делают. Они используют землю...

 

Также как в Африке, которую я видел, там достаточно земли, но что они делают? Они содержат коров и быков, а когда они вырастут… Им не дают ничего есть. Травы хватает. И как только они толстеют, их отправляют на бойню. Не для еды, а на экспорт. Этот бизнес продолжается. Аналогичный бизнес ведется в Австралии и Новой Зеландии.

 

Без надобности они убивают этих коров, и эта нехватка продуктов питания и нехватка молока - это не лучший вариант. Рекомендуемый в Бхагавад-гите метод, это аннад бхаванти бхутани. Если у вас достаточно еды, то все будут довольны. И это долг класса вайшй: криши го-ракшйа ваниджйам; го-ракшйа ваниджйам ваишйа-карма свабхава-джам. [Bg. 18.44]: «Земледелие, защита коров и торговля — таковы занятия, соответствующие природе вайшьев …»] Согласно Бхагавад-гите, это дело вайшьев. Брахманы, они должны быть очень образованными, просвещенными в духовном знании. Кшатрии должны править, защищать. Вайшьи должны производить достаточно еды.

 

А те, кто не являются ни брахманами, ни кшатриями - шудры, могут помочь. Вот и все. Это их…. Тогда все будут довольны. Общество будет продолжаться.

Также как в вашем теле вам нужны мозг, голова, вам нужны руки, вам нужен живот, вам нужны ноги. Подобным образом, брахман, кшатрий, вайшья, шудра. Это важно. Если у вас просто мозг и нет ноги, то это тоже бесполезно. Также должны быть мозг и нога. Должен быть брахман, должен быть шудра, должен быть…. Тогда социальная договоренность идеальна.

 

Интервьюер: Означает ли это, что вы поддерживаете древнюю кастовую систему?

 

Прабхупада: А? Это не кастовая система. Это разделение труда. Это не кастовая система. Класс людей должен быть умным, класс людей должен быть сильным, чтобы обеспечивать защиту. И класс людей должен производить пищу, а класс людей - разнорабочих. Это не кастовая система. Бхагавад-гита никогда не говорит «кастовая система»:

 

Чатур-варнйам майа сриштам гуна-карма-вибхагашах. [Bg. 4.13]: «В соответствии с тремя гунами материальной природы и связанной с ними деятельностью, Я разделил человеческое общество на четыре сословия.…»] В соответствии с качеством и работой.

 

Вы сделали это кастовой системой. У вас нет качества брахмана, вы [заявляете]: «Я брахман». Это кастовая система. Но если у вас есть качества брахмана и вы работаете как брахман, это необходимо. Это необходимо. Гуна-карма-вибхагашах.

 

INDIA, JANUARY 11, 1977

CONVERSATION ON TRAIN

TO ALLAHABAD

HIGHLIGHTS: Localized economics—a revolutionary social con cept…back to the land, back to freedom…education made simple…give everyone a higher taste…how to get good leaders… farms are the future

Rämeçvara: Çréla Prabhupäda, should we be thinking in our minds that one day the Kåñëa consciousness movement will have to manage the cities and the nations of the world?

Prabhupäda: Oh, yes.

Rämeçvara: So there are so many different departments in managing such a big thing. It requires a lot of…

Prabhupäda: No, no. We shall… If people become Kåñëa conscious, then the so many nonsense departments will be reduced.

Hari-çauri: Simplified.

Prabhupäda: Yes. The department, the sinful departments, illicit sex, meat-eating, this will be closed, and that will make simple.

Rämeçvara: Completely?

Prabhupäda: No, at least we shall try to make closed. And if people become localized, then this traffic will be little. Just like I am trying to organize the farm. If people do not come out of home, then this system will be obsolete. There will be no more department. They have created hundreds. They do not know how to manage it. For livelihood they have to go to Bombay, and therefore they require so many local trains. But if they localized, they can get their livelihood locally, there is no question of these all…

 

 

Rämeçvara: In America this is becoming the number-one problem —unemployment.

Prabhupäda: Yes. They must be. Artificial employment. (train re-starts)

Rämeçvara: People go to college in America; they can no longer get jobs. They spend so many years going to college getting their degree. So now they cannot find any jobs.

Prabhupäda: Yes. That is the position in America. And what to speak of this country. Therefore, after being educated they go to foreign countries. You’ll find so many Indians in educational labs (?) in your country, because they don’t get any suitable jobs. (break) …their so many departments will be closed.

 

Rämeçvara: [Localization is] possible in India but not in America.

Prabhupäda: Why?

Rämeçvara: The American people…consider it backwards.

Prabhupäda: That has to be educated, that backward is real life.

 

Rämeçvara: They think they have achieved a higher standard of freedom by traveling all over the world…

Prabhupäda: Where is your freedom? Where is your freedom if for your livelihood you have to go a hundred miles? Where is your freedom? Why you are illusioned? For your bread, you have to go hundred miles off, either by car or by train. So where is your freedom?

Rämeçvara: The freedom is in leisure time. They have a lot of leisure time.

Prabhupäda: Where is leisure time? You rise early in the morning and start for your office. Where is your leisure time? All imagination. I have seen in New York. They are coming from the other parts, starting early in the morning, two hours in the ferry and two hours in the cars, and standing two hours. What is this? Leaders, rich men, can think like that, that “I have leisure,” but a worker, lower class, they have no freedom. That is illusion, and we are trying to give freedom to everyone. That is freedom. You are forced to go to the factory and work there in a hellish condition of life. Is that freedom?

Rämeçvara: There must be still education so the people will… Say we are one day…

 

Prabhupäda: No education, no. Education will be required only for the guiding class: brähmaëas, kñatriyas, not for anyone, çüdras. They are two only. Others will… What education required? Suppose if you produce… If you are accustomed to agriculture, cow protection, there is no need going to college and schools. If you remain illiterate, still you can do.

 

Rämeçvara: But in America…

Prabhupäda: No, no, America is not… I am talking of the (indistinct), the class who will guide the aim of life, brähmaëa class, and a class that will give them protection from injuries by others, kñatriya class. Then the next class, food-producing men, they do not require. Actually only brähmaëas, they require education, or all others, they will simply see and learn. So little education required—that you can learn by hearing only, that’s all. Suppose a brähmaëa class says that “This is good; this is bad.” So you hear and accept. It doesn’t require to go to school and college. So education will be simplified. (break) It has become very much complicated.

 

 

Rämeçvara: They have given too much power to the people, so the people demand so many things.

Prabhupäda: Therefore they’re suffering. Ordinary people, what they’ll do? Anarthas. Actually it is anartha. They have created so many things.

Rämeçvara: They are very much afraid if we close down the gambling houses and the prostitution houses that there will be no more enjoyment. Life will be boring.

Prabhupäda: “What we’ll do?” (laughter) So we shall give you opportunity to chant Hare Kåñëa and dance here. (train stops) What is this nonsense?

Rämeçvara: It seems that if one day the Kåñëa conscious movement has actually achieved some powerful position in America…

Prabhupäda: That we want.

Rämeçvara: …we will have to tolerate all these things—cinema, nightclubs. How can we close all these things? The people want these things.

Prabhupäda: No. If you educate people, if you give them better enjoyment, they’ll give up.

Rämeçvara: Very gradual.

Prabhupäda: Just like our men. They are not after cinema or brothel house or restaurants. It requires education.

Hari-çauri: We have to make them devotees.

Rämeçvara: But can all the masses of people become devotees?

Prabhupäda: Oh, yes, cent percent devotees, by this process: ask them to chant and take prasäda.

 

Jagadéça: People in general are very much inclined to accept whoever their leader is if they feel happy. So if we give them kértana and prasädam, if their economic needs are met, then how can they avoid? Economic needs are the main thing. That’s why they…

 

Prabhupäda: If they can eat nicely and they have no complaint for living conditions, they will become.

Rämeçvara: But they will not give up sex life.

Prabhupäda: No, no. I don’t say that you give up sex life.

 

Rämeçvara: That means that they want to have nice clothing and cars for sex. As soon as there is sex, then they want so many other things to make it more attractive.

Prabhupäda: Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Formerly there was sex life. They’re thinking like that, “We require,” naturally. First of all they’ll be… If they advance in Kåñëa consciousness, they will stop sex life. Yad-avadhi mama cetaù kåñëa… [From Çré Yämunäcärya: “Since my mind has been engaged in the service of the lotus feet of Lord Kåñëa, and I have been enjoying an ever new transcendental humor, whenever I think of sex life with a woman, my face at once turns from it, and I spit at the thought.”] If they’re really Kåñëa conscious, they’ll have no more taste for sex life. That is…

 

 

Hari-çauri: But that position is not very easily attainable.

Prabhupäda: No, that is not easy. Therefore we say, “Restrict this.” And this will be possible if he follows our program.

 

Rämeçvara: You have said many times that if a small percentage of the Americans become Kåñëa conscious, then the whole country can gradually become Kåñëa conscious.

Prabhupäda: Oh, yes.

 

Rämeçvara: So that means that in the beginning we may be very powerful in government, but still, the masses of people will be karmés still.

Prabhupäda: No. You can introduce in such a way that they will become devotees. Suppose in big, big factories we shall introduce this prasäda distribution and chanting. They’ll immediately be popular. Everything will be… Ceto-darpaëa-märjanam. [Cc. Antya 20.12] Çikñäñöaka 1: “By chanting the names of Kåñëa, the mirror of the heart is cleansed, and the devotee loses interest in everything external.”]

Jagadéça: In order for us to get power, by that time the illumination and knowledge of Kåñëa consciousness will be widespread.

Rämeçvara: That’s what I’m wondering. I was thinking that it wouldn’t be. There would be…

Jagadéça: Otherwise how can we get through? What is the use of having one politician?

 

Rämeçvara: Many revolutions have been victorious with a very small minority of people behind them because they’re so well organized. Russia, Germany, all these revolutions.

Prabhupäda: That’s a fact.

Rämeçvara: In history there is examples of small groups of people taking over a government because they are very intelligent and very well organized.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Rämeçvara: And the mass of people did not believe in them, but still, they took over the government. Like in Russia.

Jagadéça: But Kåñëa consciousness knowledge…

Prabhupäda: In Russia, the mass of people aloof from this rascal theory.

Hari-çauri: They are not Communists, the mass of people. The Communist party itself is very small.

Prabhupäda: Yes, very small. By terrorism there will be, by terrorism.

Rämeçvara: So when the Kåñëa consciousness movement becomes so powerful that it is in charge of the government, is it because of a small group of people or because of a mass?

Prabhupäda: It is due to quality of the leaders.

Rämeçvara: But will it be like Russia where there is only a small group of people who are Kåñëa conscious?

Prabhupäda: No, it is not that. The quality of the people will be changed.

Rämeçvara: So that means the whole mass population…

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Rämeçvara: Only then will Kåñëa conscious government…

Prabhupäda: No, no. You can have government when you are in even minority. But the mass of people, on account of this quality, will have to see.

Hari-çauri: The idea is to convince them that what they need is good quality leaders, that not necessarily that they already have to become to that stage themselves.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Jagadéça: Kåñëa consciousness can be appreciated by any man because it’s very simple.

Prabhupäda: Simple and it is natural also.

Hari-çauri: The desire for good leadership is there, so if we present good leaders, then they’ll naturally take.

Prabhupäda: Our leaders must be very good.

Hari-çauri: That means we have to move into political circles (train starts moving) and do a lot of preaching on there.

Prabhupäda: If you work strictly on your principles, then everyone…

Rämeçvara: In America there is a rule that there is separation of church and government.

Prabhupäda: It is not church.

Rämeçvara: But they think of us…

Prabhupäda: Not stereotyped church.

Rämeçvara: But they think of us as a religion.

Prabhupäda: They may think. It is not the fact. It is a culture…

Now… We have come to the open field. How it is nice. And so long we were passing through that congested areas—hellish, simply hellish. And now here is open space. How it is nice.

Hari-çauri: To enter into a city is so imposing on your consciousness.

Prabhupäda: Up to that point, simply rubbish, all papers thrown here and there. People are living in… Now see here, how it is open and pleasing. Organize this farm project. Farm. (background talking)

Hari-çauri: He’s just saying that in the West one requires a great deal of capital. To start a farm, to get the land, you need a lot of money because land is very expensive. And also we have to use modern farming tech niques because we have so few men to run the farms.

Prabhupäda: No, you show example. People will do automatically. When the people find it is very nice, they will take.

Hari-çauri: Should we try to make an effort to have our householders go and live on the farms, a special effort? If it’s ready to do that?

Prabhupäda: Why householders? Everyone. Hare Kåñëa. (japa)

Rämeçvara: In America there is a very big emphasis on getting people to join us by moving into our temples. The temple presidents are very eager to get as many people to move in as possible, but in the long run most people cannot come up to the standard.

Prabhupäda: Therefore I am [advocating] farms.

Rämeçvara: So they have to be encouraged to have a little bit of Kåñëa consciousness in their own home, make their home a temple.

Prabhupäda: No, let them go to the farm, New Vrindaban.

Rämeçvara: Many people… Most people in the world, they are gåhamedhés, and they cannot give it up so easily.

Prabhupäda: “No, you remain… Come here with your wife, children. You remain gåhamedhé.”

Jagadéça: New Vrindaban is very austere. If we build little bungalows with modern convenience…

Prabhupäda: Oh, yes.

Jagadéça: There has to be some modern convenience.

Prabhupäda: Oh, yes. Then we shall do that.

Rämeçvara: But for many people who live in the cities, they have their jobs already. They don’t want to give it up…

Say, in America, most people live in the cities, and they already have their job, and they are set in their ways.

Prabhupäda: But you said that there is unemployment also.

Rämeçvara: To a certain extent. But there are still 250,000,000 people. So most of them…

Prabhupäda: So those who are unemployed, let them come to us. We shall give them employment.

Rämeçvara: Yes. But for the mass population…

Prabhupäda: Well, gradually you will increase and…

Rämeçvara: We have to give them something that they can do in their home.

Prabhupäda: Oh, yes.

Rämeçvara: Because it is impractical to think that they will give up everything and move into the temple.

Prabhupäda: No, those who are unemployed, let them come. We shall give them employment.

Jagadéça: On the farm.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Rämeçvara: For those who are unemployed, that’s attractive.

Jagadéça: But for those who are already employed…

Rämeçvara: But most people have jobs.

Prabhupäda: Eh?

Rämeçvara: Many people already have their jobs and their families.

Prabhupäda: All right, let them not come, but those who are unemployed, let them come.

Rämeçvara: But what…? For those people who already have their jobs, instead of…

Prabhupäda: That job… They will be very soon jobless. Don’t worry. (laughs) They will come. They will be obliged to come. Now they have got job, but as the days are advancing in Kali-yuga, they’ll be jobless.

Hari-çauri: So we can expect that material conditions are going to become very much worse than this.

Prabhupäda: They may come or not. We don’t care for it. Let us establish an ideal society. That is the…

Jagadéça: If someone who is well-off wants to become a devotee, shall we encourage him to give up all of his material well-being or shall we ask him to instead put a temple in his house and encourage him how to make his house into a temple and make his whole family Kåñëa conscious?

Prabhupäda: And what is your material well-being? Everyone is going hundred miles for well-being. Is that well-being? Either they may go by motorcar or by train… And as soon as there is—what is called?—bottle- neck, they become very much disturbed: “How to go to the office?” Where is well-being?

Rämeçvara: Say, the Christian religion… The Christian religion has millions of followers.

Prabhupäda: But what is the meaning of these followers? They do not understand anything. Simply by rubber-stamp they are follower.

Rämeçvara: But if we can get a mass following, it is only possible by preaching to them little bit at a time.

Prabhupäda: Yes. By your ideal life, ideal teaching, you’ll get. This Christian or any religion, what is the use of that? It’s not at all religion. It’s simply rubber-stamp…

Rämeçvara: Many people think that if you become a Hare Kåñëa you have to shave your head.

Prabhupäda: That is very good.

Rämeçvara: But it scares them and it keeps them from joining us.

Prabhupäda: No, you save so much barbers’ expenses. (laughter)

Hari-çauri: So much inconvenience for washing.

Rämeçvara: These are misunderstandings that confuse people.

Prabhupäda: The whole life is misunderstanding, material life.

Rämeçvara: But we want them to chant Hare Kåñëa. That’s the main thing.

Prabhupäda: Why they are envious of us? When we live very nicely, they are envious that “These people do not do anything, and they are living so nicely.”

Rämeçvara: They will not be so envious if they see that people who dress in Western style and keep their families and keep their jobs are also chanting Hare Kåñëa.

Prabhupäda: We say…We say that, that we simply say, that “You change your consciousness.”

Rämeçvara: Not change your dress, but change your consciousness.

Prabhupäda: No, we never said. If you prefer that kind of dress, costly, you prefer it, but we are simplified.

Rämeçvara: It’s our choice.

Prabhupäda: Yes.

Hari-çauri: As a person becomes more purified, then he’ll simplify himself anyway. And if he really cultivates a desire to…

Prabhupäda: Now, nowadays coat-pant is very costly. If you can spend your money, costly dress, we have no objection. Then you have to earn more; you have to work more. Therefore we are simplified.

Rämeçvara: Ultimately, it is the best thing.

Prabhupäda: If they want to come in that dress, come in. If you want, come in.